:o wastegate actually said that?!

Wastegate, you really should read Das Capital.

By distancing those that actually work hard from the means of production and by putting the means of production in the hands of those who do not need to work to maintain it, capitalism does just that which you describe; it gives those that do the hard work on the factory floor as little as it possibly can to maintain them and gives those that own the means of production, but do not need to work to maintain it, all that they can take from it.

Guess you had it wrong. Capitalism rewards those willing to take risks.

All I'm saying is, with communism, everyone is equal, right? In that there lies no freedom. You cannot be what you want, you cannot belive what you want, you cannot listen/watch what you want, you have to be like everyone else. Sure it will help some starving people in Africa, but then what? That isn't very free to me.

Perfectly said. But I said something similar above, and I don't think they get it. I feel it is like this - they have lived in a jail cell for most of their lives, and when they are let out, they have no clue what to do. This is very similar to real prison inmates, they've been told what to do all their life and everything was structured for them all their life, they can't handle it on the outside where they can choose what to do for the rest of their life. This results for them longing to go back to jail, and they eventually violate their parole, or they commit a new crime so that they can go back to what they are comfortable with. The rest never really fit back into public life, and many commit suicide.

I've seen this with my parrot. He doesn't want to be out and left alone - he wants back in his cage where things are structured and he feels safe.

It's amazing to see this from people from ex communist countries and their longing to go back into their own cage.

-S

As you may have guessed, I am analyzing this whole conversation since I find it interesting that people like Socialism / Communism, and a thought just occured to me:

Maybe it is true that people want to be told what to do?

I don't personally fit into that catagory, but I am begining to think that the people who live in Communistic / Socialistic countries actually like it this way. They don't have to think and are perfectly happy with someone thinking for them! It is amazing I think to see this. Why don't people like thinking for themselves? I enjoy making my own destiny, and I am quite succesful at it, and I plan to be even more succesful in the future! I just can't understand the mentality of people who like to be told what to do. I guess, have fun if that is what you consider fun. You may like it, but I think it is a rather pathetic existence though. Just my 2 cents.

-S

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but could you give some examples of things you might want do do, that you don't think you could do in a socialist, communal society?

Have you been reading the thread? It is full of them.

-S

Get more money, own a better car than my neighbor, get a good education, have Success in life. Something not everyone can have in a commie/socialist government/economy.

He said "do do". Tee hee.

In my mind, even this is too narrow. My thoughts are to go through life feeling I accomplished something. The idea of being just another number is just that - nothing. You are wasting space, food, and adding to global warming just by existing if you choose a system where you are told what to do, and told to get back in your cage. Only the truely free can be free to accomplish the truely extrodinary.

I wrote above about how this mentality is affecting people who have lived under this system for so long. It is nothing more than a jail cell, and being outside that jail is an impossibility for some people. They can't handle it mentally.

-S

PS. Even the state has no capability to imagine what it is that is best for its people. Only the people can do that.

Under capitalism you can get a better car than your neighbor if you sit on your arse all day and own a factory.
Your neighbor works hard 12 hours a day on a factory floor, but he still earns far less than you and his car is crap, even tho he actually works far more than you.

Under socialism the only way you can get a better car than your neighbor is if you actually chose to do harder work than he does.
Now everyone owns a percentage of the factory, so no one can earn money by just owning something that makes money for them by exploiting the workers. Instead of the factory exploiting the workers, the workers exploit the factory. The more hours work you do, and the harder the work, the bigger the percentage of the factory you own and so the more money you make.

True, I just ran out of time. Had to post short.

I guess you still don't get it. The guy with the factory already risked his butt and all he had on a gamble of trying to make something. He can sit on his butt the rest of his life if he wants, but I have never known a person who created something like this to sit idle. They are out creating something new and wonderful. This one guy has created two things now, and will probably increase things exponentially until he has a major industrial base going for him. Back in the Socialistic / Communistic idea - all your guys still have only 1 factory to the 10+ that the capatalistic guy has.

This is the very reason the US outproduced its rival in every way shape and form. Russia could never hope to hold a candle to the economic might of a private system. There is no incentive.

-S

If one sees the value of life only in goals defined by a purely materialistic philosophy, a debate like this necessarily must go like it does. The definition of "success" as given in this thread also is very poor and self-limiting, imo. It does justice to trained doves in experiments, maybe, but not to humans. It may be true that many humans live in so poor codntions that material needs rank highest for them, necessarily. This does not mean that man is not capable of wishes leading beyond this. This "beyond" is what makes man seperate from animals. so focussing on materialistic concepts exclusively only means to limit man to his animalistic origin in the past. No wonder then that it is often argued that business shouold mimic the survival of the fittest as being illustrated by preadator and prey in nature. But that is a poor vision of man. no, it is no vision at all. It just rules that it shall never be different.

It is sad if people are living a life i so great poverty that they cannot afford to think about the "beyond". But all hope truly is lost oif people live in wealth but refuse to think about it voluntarily, and even try to convince others that it is useless, although they have the option to do so.

But those doing this are the same who often complain about decreasing values and lack of moral. It is exactly the attitude of mind that makes the West so weak and vulnerable towards ideologies (like Islam and any form of fundamentalisjm in general) that are strong in morals, even if rigid morals, it is what has hollowed out the West and made him loosing the right to claim cultural and/or ethical superiority. Poverty corrupts morals when you need to rob or hide your pride to get together the food and money you need to keep your family alive. wealth also corrupts morals - when enough is never enough, and wealth is all that counts in life.

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." - America and Europe have choosen for Money. That's why our community now fall victim to foreign Gods like Muhammad's Allah. Man wants more than just bread and gold. Western materilaism doe snot feed this most essential need. So people start looking elsewhere - even in totalitarism if only it promises them leadership on the ground of strong morals.

I find it ironic that some people cannot see that they may criticise Islam, but make it strong themsleves by hollowing out the rich ethical and philosophical heritage of the West - by reducing it to purely materialistic terms and capitalistic temrinology. However- ignorrance is no excuse and does not save you from penalty. Islam cannot be driven back by dollars and militaries.

We rot from within, and die of our own greed and lacking restraint, while still emitting a superficial shine. It's not the shine of a bright mind, but cold gold only.

You are officially the most materialistic person I know.