You seem to think that this symbol has been banned. It hasn´t. We can see it on TV, in movies, books and so on.

Article 86a of the German penal code states that its use is allowed for "public education, prevention of hostile actions against the constitution, the use in art, science, schooling, news reports, historical reports and the like.".

Thats good, why do they take it out of games then ?
Dont they concider games an artform ? (I do, similar vein to movies)

I dont live in Germany so I did think it was banned atleast where possible, obviously history books and movies is a bit hard to do, but I seem to remember an airshow had it removed from one of the planes. What about museums ?

No.

Yep, but it´s for example also ok to show the swastika in comedy shows. There´s really not much censorship in that regard.

Dunno if they had to remove it or if they´d removed because of PC.

I´ve seen swastikas and Nazi/NSDAP flags in museums.

I used to work in the 'Kölnisches Stadtmuseum' (a museum that is dedicated to the history of Cologne) and swastikas are at display.

I'm Japanese, and we really hate americans or people from other countires calling us "JAP".
I should say that as a moderator of Japanese forum....:nope: :nope: :nope: :nope: :nope:
Right? Zaza-san!

I would suggest that Yattky has effectively settled this particular question...

Seems my point was missed.

Sarchasm:

"Ohhh NAZI FLAG NAZI SYMBOL. IM OFFENDED IT SHOULD BE BANNED!"


The swaztika under nazi germany is a ****load more offensive then the word "Jap".

If anyone japanese is offended... Well, im sorry, im not going to lose any sleep over it. Its WW2 slang, its a ww2 game,get over it

Now, im gonna say upfront right now, if Submsim is going to actively ban the use of the word jap because someone might have their feelings hurt. (boo hoo) THen they better stop the double standards around here, right here and now..

General forum for starters. Full of Anti islamic furor and and other poltiical hatred. Dont see anyone trying to put a cap on that. Then people have occasionaly used another offensive symbol, IE, the said swatzica.

If this place is gonna go PC, then one standard will do just nicely.

As it is, here's how this place is: "oh you can slam this religion 9 ways to sunday, or fly swazticas all over the place if you want, but don't you dare use the word jap!"

Suuuureeeee. Whatever.

EDIT:
Since no one seems to have problems with swaztica's, then none of this should be a problem either, right?!

http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/posters2/usa13.jpg
http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/posters2/usa23.jpg
http://z.about.com/d/history1900s/1/0/e/Q/wwiip117.jpg
http://z.about.com/d/history1900s/1/0/K/S/wwiip213.jpg
http://bss.sfsu.edu/internment/Assets/moreplg.jpg
http://bss.sfsu.edu/internment/Assets/licklg.jpg
http://bss.sfsu.edu/internment/Assets/stoplg.jpg

"Your a Sap Mr Jap" - WW2 popeye cartoon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEK45-_5y0s

I agree. Yattky is a long time Subsim member. I appreciate his coming into this thread and letting us non-Japanese know.

I think that in historical context of a movie or the game, "Jap" will reflect the attitude of people at war. In our daily forum discussions, I would recommend using "Japanese" as much as possible. Consider it a small courtesy. thanks.

Interesting that the anti-German propaganda was never racially motivated. I guess "take that, you white European male!" just doesn't quite have the same pissiness.

Ducimus,

There is no, and can be no, hard, definite line about what is "permitted" and what is not; not in this forum nor in the world in general. This forum and website has a defined mission statement that clearly says"

To hold that standard, sometimes discussions or the nature of discussions have to be moderated. In a lot of cases, it's a judgment call, and someone has to make the call. My judgment is not superior to yours or anyone else's. But, someone has to make the call, to maintain some kind of decorum. In a newspaper or magazine, it's the editor. In TV, the producer. Here, it's the admin and moderators, and they are all part of the community.

We have allowed discussion on religon and Muslim topics, and if you recall,when the discussions have grown too provacative and contentious, the topics have been closed. It's acceptable to point out the current state of affairs in the world, but not in a sustained, provacative manner that causes friction with other forum members.

This is not solely addressed to you, Ducimus, but to all of us. In the Internet world of chatrooms and forums, it's common for people to behave very badly to each other. In this forum, our goal is to behave as if you were in the same room with each other, with a little respect and tact, and courtesy. Just think, someday you may be able to attend a Subsim meet somewhere, and you will be meeting guys you have been speaking to in the forums. That has been the policy of this forum since it began in 1999.

Let's not turn this topic into the absolute philisophical battlefield that will straighten out the world for all time on the use of the term "Jap". As the topic starter Iron B. pointed out, the term is considered offensive to many Japanese. Yes, I sometimes agree that PC is silly and oppresive, sometimes I don't know what to call someone without offending them. Can I say "Jap" in a non-offensive, purely casual use? Would "Jap" have been okay if the U.S. government never used that term in war propaganda films, in effect tainting the word. Can I say "Brit"? "Frenchie?" "Redneck?" It gets to be a pain, worrying about every syllable that comes out. But regarding the term "Jap", I don't plan to strip to the waist and fight to the death to use it. I do not think it should be banned either, but if used in a hateful context, it will be addressed.

thanks
Neal

On the subject of flags I've always been sort of intrigued by the fact that the Japanese Maritime Self Defence Forces brought back the Rising Sun flag as a naval ensign in 1954. I was wondering if it causes any bad feelings when flown in Asian countries which chaffed under Japanese occupation. I've heard it rankles some veterans when Japanese ships visiting Pearl Harbour fly it. Perhaps because of it's more martial history it doesn't have the same political baggage as the 'German' swastika?

http://www.eskimo.com/%7Esnowfall/Naval-Ensign.jpg

My problem is, this "issue" strikes me on a personal level.

I have this one, big massive pet peeve that sets me off quicker then a stick of dynamite with a quickmatch fuse:

What is tantamount to special intrest groups, trying adjust the rules and laws so that im forced to live by THEIR standards or customs.

One example, i have BIG ISSUES with organized religion. My best example is my own kid brother is not allowed to celebrate Holloween anymore at school because some overly christionized dillweeds decided it was devil worship. So they got some city ordinace passed and theyre you go.

That, to me, is OUTRAGEOUS! When groups of people with a speical intrest do stuff like that, i tend to fight it. I dont care what it is, it just REALLY sets of me off how a small group of people can screw things up for everybody else - to have their garbage ramrodded down my throat. I really hate it, and all it does is motivate me to piss in those people's wheaties every chance i get. If someone just asked me on a personal level, "hey man, i really wish you could use some other word", thats one thing.

But when people make an issue about it, and try and ramrod it down my throat, i'll do the exact opposite because the very thought about those people getting their way like that ticks me off. I'ts one thing to ask me, it's another thing to make a lobby about it because it feels like a damn infringement on personal rights if/when they get their way, and to not fight back about it, is to let them "win", and that's just equally upsetting.

I understand, I feel the same way to a degree.

In the discussions on this forum, that's exactly what I am asking you and others; could we avoid using derogatory term "Jap" as much as possible. And to everyone, including anyone who may be offended by the term; if it is used on occasion, could you overlook it.

If everyone could exert a little self-control, things will be fine. :)

I'll certainly adhere to this more than reasonable request. In the end, I think it's good etiquette and shows respect to other forum members. And Honestly...is it really that much of a sacrifice?

I think my problem is the immaturity level of people who have to use derogatory terms about any nationality in a game just for the immersion excuse.

I've hung around the battlefront.com website for years and this kind of thing would never have come up over there.

In fact those from battlefront.com that have been here once never go back since they consider Subsim as "internet kindergarden". Sorry Neal.

They see threads like this and threads such as ones about wanting to machine gun survivors and just roll their eyes. Threads like these do not help Subsims reputation among some of the other wargame sites.

Sadly,some of the things said in this thread and in a few others have caused me to decide to leave the subsim community. There seems to be too much racism and bigotry towards the Japanese people here,and too many people have tried to excuse away the killing of people in lifeboats. I just no longer wish to be associated with people that come off as racist bigots...or others who seem to be sorely lacking in morals or compassion.