Oh come on you can do better than that, seriously.:nope:
Nobody said anything about killing anybody as a solution.

What's your plan for the situation? Let everything continue as is? Watch crime rates skyrocketing and declare women fair game?

BTW Gas pistols and pepper spray are sold out in a lot of shops and used ones are sold for outlandish prices on the net....so you can see how safe the average finger at America for owning weapons pointing German feels these days.:/\\!!

. . .

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35478964

"The BBC has gathered evidence that Israel is sending unwanted African migrants to other countries under secretive deals which may be in breach of international law.

The Israeli government refuses to name the third countries involved in the deals, but the BBC has spoken to people who say they were sent to Rwanda and Uganda".

Israel is a signatory state to the UN Refugee Convention.

You mostly wrote one liners without really saying much, I genuinely asked. But be assured, this time, your post did suffice.

I wish to address the following.
"Yes, some of them are breaking the law, no doubt there, and yes it probably does have a fair bit to do with different social atmospheres."
Not some: Many. That is the problem. Sure, "some" and "many" are both relative terms, but there are numbers to clear that up.
The problem is, you will have 5 sources with 6 different statistics.
Coincidentally, the left papers always claim that the statistics are all wrong - while the right papers claim... that the statistics are all wrong.

For example, Spiegel Online - your "we all need to be friends!" paper claims that "Migrants commit more crimes!" is a lie - and statistics support that too, on first glance.
If you know how these statistics work however, you will quickly realize why this seems to be the case. In Germany, roughly 50% of the migrants do have German papers, so inside the statistics, they are counted as Germans - not Migrants... because that looks a tad nicer. ;)

So yes, migrants commit more crimes.

"Does this mean that Islam is ebil (TM) not really, no. It means that some people are arseholes"
I never said Islam is evil because migrants grope Women.I said Islam is evil because the Quran commands to act in a way that is simply not acceptable in our western civilization - which is a fact, is it not?

"Let's not forget why so many people are coming to Europe, because we've royally screwed over the Middle East"
Oh please. What exactly did I do to the middle east?
Is north North-Africa the middle east by the way?
Is Morocco at war?
Algeria?
Tunisia?

And for the ME,
Egypt?
Or did I turn Syria in into ruins?

Even if, I said let's help those who need it, more then once, however, we can not sacrifice everything we have because of the usual "evil European guilt-trip".
It is the same as the guilt-trip my country went through after WW2.
I had nothing to do with any of that, leave me alone.
Neither do I endorse or support the foreign politics of my country and I surely didn't want the US to start this mess in the middle east way back in the 80s, so I do not accept that Europe and therefore Germany, as we know it, have to bend-over for an ideology that makes no secret out of what it thinks about the western ways and what it would prefer instead.

I wouldn't say a single word, if the newspapers would not report about "southlandish-looking men" who commit [insertrandomcrime] on a daily basis. Daily, Oberon - that isn't "some people are bumholes", that is a real problem, caused by people with a very certain cultural background. Meanwhile, the Christian refugees we have do not cause problems, on the contrary, they are constant targets of muslim aggression, as someone pointed out before I think.
Surely, another coincidence, let's not blame Islam. :03:

"It's like deciding that all Christians are evil because of the actions of the KKK and the WBC, or that all Hindus are evil because of the actions of the RSS."
No, it is nothing like that.
First of all, the bible and the Christian culture that has developed over time - contrary to Islam - doesn't command you to kill [insertothereligion/non-believers] "wherever you find them", or to beat your wife or conquer the world - contrary to Islam.
Also, how much of a real problem is KKK TODAY?
What matters is what happens now and tomorrow. I don't give a damn about some KKK freaks from half a century ago, they do not matter anymore, they aren't a problem - Islam is because every day(!) people murder and slaughter in the name of this ideology, fueled by hatred, consumed out of their most holy book. They only do what the Quran says - unlike those who do not, yet claim to be "muslim".

The fact that you speak of "moderate muslims" actually says it all.
There is no such thing, realistically speaking, like "moderate Buddhists" or "moderate Jews", and I wonder why? :hmm2:

"In short, if someone who is a Muslim molests a woman, arrest him, charge him and either imprison or deport him. But don't deport him, his friend down the road and all the other Muslims in the street because one guy was an idiot."
I didn't ask to do so.
As an atheist, I'd gladly see religion vanish one way or the other, especially Islam, but I didn't ask for this - so why bring it up?

I said Islam is evil, and I provided examples and facts to support this point of view that I do not expect you to share or agree on - just to accept without acting as if I'm some lunatic right wing sociopath when in reality, I could hardly be more left - and this isn't a joke, I am a complete "live and let live" person. Go marry your lawnmower, go be a hobo, a punk who refues to work because reasons, be a gay transgender martian, go to some church 3 times a day, I do not care - be happy, life is precious!

But my 'tolerance' ends however, when I am expected to tolerate someone or something that goes against everything our western values stand for and is nothing but a dangerous ideology, determined to conquer everything and everyone. Be it nazism or Islam, same **** to me, evil is evil and a "moderate muslim" who doesn't do anything his book says is no valid counter argument against my opinion that Islam itself is evil.


Closing, I agree with pretty much the rest of your post, I just wanted to address the above.
Both our viewpoints are clear by now, I guess.
I do not wish to pick a fight with you, and the near future will tell if I was just paranoid, or right.

@Oberon

I guess a year or two ago I would have supported your position. The problem with that is that we can only deport people who already have commit serious crimes here so the deeds are already done. We are importing huge amounts of crime and literally have to wait for it to happen before we can do anything about it. That means we'll see tens of thousands of felonies (and the victims of those) in the not so distant future and we're importing more every day. I don't like the idea of not helping people in need but if that means that we have to compromise our own safety then I say sorry, not going to happen (well, it actually HAS already happened....). And when the risk of becoming a victim to a member of the religion of peace is much higher than to become a victim to ANY OTHER ethnic or religious group then I think there is something severely wrong with that group/religion/culture and we should stop importing people from those countries and keep their influence here to a minimum for the sake of our own safety.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-...nts-to-uganda/

From 2013.

"Uganda was revealed Thursday as the African country that will absorb migrants to be deported by Israel in the coming months.


On Wednesday, Interior Minister Gideon Sa’ar announced that Israel signed an agreement with an African country, which he did not name, that will accept migrants who choose to leave the country voluntarily.
The east African nation will shelter Eritrean migrants and act as a transit point for Sudanese people as they head back to their home country, the Interior Ministry said in a statement.

The effort to deport the migrants, set to begin in the coming weeks, will also target those who refuse to leave by clamping down on the conditions of their stay in Israel.

“In the first stage we will focus on raising awareness and information among the migrant population while also helping to make all the exit arrangements,” Sa’ar told the Knesset Internal Affairs and Environment Committee on Wednesday.

On Thursday, he said the migrants would be safe in the host country, and would be allowed to work there, and that the procedures for their departure from Israel had “been though all the necessary legal filters.”

Sa’ar noted that Israel will pay for the cost of the flights and provide a financial package that would take into consideration any money and property the migrants have accumulated during their time in the country.
The second stage of the plan will begin in earnest after the coming month of Jewish holidays in September, and will include a direct appeal to the migrants to leave of their own accord within a defined time period, Sa’ar told the Knesset panel. In addition, the state will begin taking action against those who refuse to go by no longer routinely extending their permits to stay in the country as well enforcing laws against the migrants who work and those who employ them.

(...)"

Its utopic to assume that a communtiy can digest just any influx of foreigners, no mmatter the numbers. Reality beats formality. Canadians, Australians seem to understand this better than Germans and other Euroists.

I find it a bit funny .. just of all England does not want more immigrants, which is one (more) reason England wants to leave the EU, for not being obliged to accept more immigrants.. or do i get that wrong? :hmmm:

Also, which nations were so keen to get to Iraq, why don't they take the immigrants their very .. "influence" produced, all around the ME?

Your article confirms what people told BBC, that they were sent to Uganda. So the BBC report could be true.

„Its utopic to assume that a communtiy can digest just any influx of foreigners, no mmatter the numbers. Reality beats formality. Canadians, Australians seem to understand this better than Germans and other Euroists. „


Vot iss your point?:doh:
The BBC report is about Israel and African migrants.

My take:
- one of the core European ideals is the rule of law.

As such, you have to prosecute any criminals for the crimes that they have commited. The core problem is not that imigrants may or may not commit crimes, but that:
- you have an increase in crime levels.
- a lot of those crimes appear to be conducted by a group (of people), making prosecution difficult (because you have to prove that they have done it as a group).
And so the problem is manageable with the apropriate resource allocation.

Thus the question is not as much in terms of removing evill kebab, but in how much resources wise you are willing to spend on the altruistic mission of reforming and integrating all those refugees and imigrants. If you do not plan to keep them, but rather to provide temporary shelter, then you should go for filtration and refugee camps.
If you do plan to keep them, then you need to calculate how much you could take and instigate controls after that quota is filled.

Problem is that people above the police and above the judicial system are party morons that got to their position by bending their asses to the correct people.
The police would love to take a more stern approach to criminals, stop protecting pereptraitors and give victims actual safety. I know policemen so I know they'd bust the door to a wealthy tycoon for free.
But politicians are running the show. And they don't know squat.

Yeah well, you're not alone with that feeling, for what it's worth.
And surely this wasn't fun at all.
The whole topic is highly frustrating and depressing to me.
For years nothing made me so upset like the problems Europe is facing now,
for they may be fatal one way or another, it's just scary, you know. :-?

I just hope this didn't develop into something personal, I would regret that.

Israel gets Flak because it is Israel, and sending away migrants gets Flak for sending away migrants.

Else why would you have enriched this thread all of a sudden on migration stories from Israel. ...

Canada and Australia run strict deterance regimes against unwanted migration (for which the yget Flak as well), but thy do not care what UN wants to tell them, and continue with it. Successfully. Their migration inlet is mostly highly qualified, choosen by needs of their eocnomy and labour market, and with good integration prognosis - something that cannot be said about the majority of Muslim migration into Europe: France, Britain, Sweden, Holland, Germany...

Israel let in Jewish migrants without discriminating between good and foul apples since many years, from all parts of the world. Hasn't served them well, they have huge inner problem from this massive influx of foreigners from other cultures. They currently learn that just being Jewish - is not enough.

Germany must learn that a welcome culture is the most unhelpful thing there is. Merkelistan needs to understand that in a world where several hundred million wealth migrants are sitting on packed suitcases, standing up and sending the message into all directions "Germany's doors are open, and our gates are wide", necessarily will trigger an according reaction. And once you have some hundred million bodies moving, that has a self-dynamic and drive that you can stop as easily as you could stop a running stampede of panicking buffalo. We need to discriminate between migrants we need and migrants we need not, and we have any natural right to do so, we should let them seek labour from early on - and we must put pressure on them from start on to finance themselves and to integrate, without "if" and without "but". If you migrate to the US, this is a matter of course. You get private help and welcome aid - but after three months your social finance aid gets significantly cut no matter whether you have a job or not. After 90 days, you better have one and became self-sustainable.

We must stop letting in children travelling alone, and especially isolated young males. We should do like the Canadians and only let in families who have children: father, mother, kids; and the father having a wanted qualification. We should push them to become self-sustained quickly and leave them no choice there, nor should we leave them any choice but to integrate. Unwanted migrants need to be send away at the border, even by the use of force (else Germany has no longer sovereignty over it borders), and mirgants not allowed or wanted being picked up in Germany should, like inAustrlia, be put into prison-like camps for three years. Illegal migration to Australia has come to practically nill.

Not welcome culture. Deterance - and once established, spreading the word. We need to understand that we are stupid germans if thinking that the whole world must love us. We must aim at raising the number of migrants reporting home how terrible a mistake it was to come to Germany, and that those at home should not repeat that mistake.

Discrimination is no bad thing. The term comes form Latin and means nothign else than to differ between two things, or to chose for the one and against the other. Which is a basic right if liberty should have any meaning.

I will tell you why I posted the BBC report.

This thread is on page 70 now and a waste of time because all you guys do is whining. Quit whining and make proposals for a fix for German asylum policy, will you?

The Israel example is interesting because first of all Israel is not an EU member. So you can't blame the EU this time. That you would get lost because someone mentioned „Israel“ was to be expected.

Second thought: the BBC report mentions that Israel is sending unwanted African migrants to other countries under secretive deals which may be in breach of international law.

Hint! Hint! Vot iss?

Even Israel is affected by mass migration. Israel is not Germany.
You say, Canadians, Australians seem to understand this better, you seem to be referring to breach of International law, than Germans and other "Euroists".

I say, you can't blame German or "Euroist" thinking here because the BBC report is about Israel's asylum policy.

Third: Israel like any other country has legal obligations with regard to refugees as it has signed the UN Refugee Convention. I guess I am losing you here right now because „UNSSR“ and you are going to write a pamphlet about how the UN is rotten and all that.

Do you want to abolish the UN Refugee Convention from 1951? That would be a proposal we could talk about. I doubt that this is going to happen.

Israel has obvioulsy a „protection elsewhere“ strategy, such is possible under the UN Refugee Convention. They make deals with third countries to take over asylum seekers from Africa.

From there you could ask, why doesn't not Germany follow a „protection elsewhere strategy“ like Israel, because we are looking for a fix, don't we?

Well, if you look at the EU-Turkey deal, it becomes obvious that the EU is following a protection elsewhere strategy with Turkey like Israel with Uganda. Well, here you get distracted by bad feelings about the madness of a EU-Turkey harmonisation.

We are running in circles.

Some did, including me.
Stop whining and read? :O:

When an estray rings at my door and demands to live in a corner of my room from now on, I say "No". I also will not accept being told that I should offer him money for that he leaves again.

Thats at the core of the issue: Saying No at the gate, door, border, or not. Everything else is cosmetics to appease the moral conscience.

A harmonization of relations with Turkey. I only giggle on that folly, and leave it to that. If people still have not heard the shot although Erdoghan emptied a complete magazine, I cannot help it.

Finally, one must see that Western follies and illusions towards Russia, towards Islamic regimes, towards the chance of "democracy" in the ME, have done their share to spill oil into fires that were burning alread since centuries. So I recommend to finally stop maintaining such illusions, and settle back on a solid grounds basis at the bottom of reality. I'm preaching that since years. And got criticised for being "too harsh", "too heartless", "too racist", "too whateveryouwanttocallit".

Okay, it seems the show will go on for even longer time to come, and still is not hot enough. Justice means that you get the consequences that you deserve. In the end Western countries and the regional populations living in them will be treated fair and just, therefore, inevitably. The consequences of our deeds will find us. Promised. The only variable here is the time delay.

Weniger kümmern. Mehr lassen. You don't clear a glass of muddy water by trying to regulate and aid and manage it with a spoon. You put it aside, take care that nobody touches it, and let it be. Often the best of all bad options is not "doing", but "not-doing".