Good point Mike, I remember during my time as Police Officer, my authority was only valid in England and Wales.

Likewise when I had a Personal Alcohol Licence (I was a Store Trainer), mine was only valid in Scotland.

It's interesting to see some of the comment's for Henry Hill's article of the legal ruling: LINK. Ignorance of the subtlety of what constitutes the UK legal system appears widespread amongst the Tory Party's Hard Right.

Lord Ashcroft's polling for Northern Ireland:

Lord Ashcroft: My Northern Ireland polling. Six out of ten voters there accept the backstop. But only one in five Unionists do so.

No doubt uncomfortable reading for the DUP, but it also highlights the continuing effects of religious sectarianism on NI political process.:hmmm:

Mike.

I expect the Supreme Court to do as above but whatever happens next is anyone's guess.

Either way....what an almighty mess.

That decision shows the whole problem with Courts trying to second guess political decisions.

The Court rules that the advice the PM gave was unlawful, but under the UK Constitution, the PM has no power, he only advises the Queen who has all the powers, but is obliged to follow the PM's advice.

For the order to have any teeth, the Court would have to order the Queen to recall Parliament, but the Courts are deemed to be an extension of the Crown, do they have the power to force the Queen to take a political decision?

Can the Court "order" the PM to advise the Queen to recall Parliament? Would that be legal under the UK Constitution?

It is a political minefield, no doubt why the Court said the advice was "unlawful", but ordered no remedy.

https://news.sky.com/story/boris-joh...ction-11807175

Way to go to loose more votes Bojo who told you to say no to Nigel, psycho Dominick? :hmmm:

Meanwhile this....

https://news.sky.com/story/operation...eased-11807339

a) I admit i have no idea what brexiters think now, and i refuse to call them brexiteers, because musketeers or buccaneers are a completely different breed, something brexiters surely have not.

They have been lied to, they believed it, they are too proud to admit that after having tons of evidence for the lies being sold to them, and they are turning at least England into a chaos (if Scotland and/or Ireland have the guts to leave the 'UK')

b) Ukip propaganda and the brexit project fear against immigrants (anyone remembers Farage's big poster?) sure influenced them, whether "UKIP went somewhere" or not. And UKIP, Farage and some others certainly knew how to spread propaganda of the lowest sort, and it hit home. In a way i would never have believed, this was a genuine surprise for me.

c) I do believe that brexit will damage the UK or at least England (if the rest breaks away), it is not only Cameron's papers published after the referendum (lmao) but also what is described in new publications, or even in Johnson's "Operation Yellowhammer" no deal scenario just posted by Steed. Really, what will they think of next, operation chastise again, The Blitz? Is there any non-war language left? Or is "yellowhammer" Johnson's frozen pee?

Yes there are tons of evidence of lies on the benefits of brexit, and i could prove it just by quoting pages from this thread, but all has been said about that ages ago. I admit i am losing my patience. It is obviously a nationalist Thing, it is clearly not about economy. And it defies all of what people like Cecil Lewis hoped and wrote for more than hundred years ago.

*(quote from link below) "The only positive is that Brexit has at last broken the political and social hegemony that kept our population subdued and somewhat apathetic. They are no longer apathetic, and their rage has become unbearable to the Westminster political and media chattering classes. They simply do not know what to do with this rage: they are used to being left in peace as they cause havoc in people’s lives. Now they are being challenged on what they do, and what they say."
Alright, but then.. Johnson???

This article* https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/...an-blame-them/ made me understand the rage and fury of the "lower classes" as they are still being identified in England or so it seems, but even when i understand frustration and the urge to change the existing political landscape, which has ignored them for ages, at all cost, why for heaven's sake do they think that just of all leaving the EU will help them? It was just of all the EU that introduced better conditions for working classes, one of the major reasons for Right wingers like Rees-Mogg to get away from such ideas asap.

I have no idea what will be better in England (or the UK if it holds) after a brexit, you can tell me, and we will see.

Its so strange - or not strange at all - that you accuse Brexiteers of this and that dialectical or political trick and practice - and when the same ways are being practiced on behalf of pro-EU issues and interests, you have nothing to complain about. Double standards. But why not, if not even the EU commission has problems with double standards, and confessing to cheatign and misleading.



You do not complain about cheap tricks. They are fully acceptable to you - as long as not being used against what you want, but are beign used in favour of what you want.



Quite some of the things you complain about, by now are known by more people in the UK than were known three years ago. And still: pro-Brexit is strong in opinion shares, if there were a new referendum, it is anything but certain that anti-Brexiteers would now collect a majority. You should wonder why that is so. And come to the conclusion that your premisses and factors that you tend to weigh heavily, maybe are not as important for many Brits as you think. And from here you maybe should reach for a conclusion that there are interests on their mind that have little to do with your motives you assume they have.



Germans are always knowing so damn well what motives, interests and morals other people and countries should have. A nerve-killing deformation of a deeply servile, state-believing national character. Maybe explainable after Prussia and two world wars. But not excusable.

The Leave and Remain campaigns were so bad in places, I almost didn't vote at all.
The leavers have been mislead in part, as likely have remainers, we will see if the sky falls in as they predicted, i guess.

but i wont say 'lied to' because its unproven, we still don't have an outcome and who's to say that those who 'lied' didn't believe it them selves? false conviction is not the same as lying - another thing you and nobody else can really prove.
the Leave poster and NHS claim were propaganda, as are claims of empty supermarkets, and chlorinated chicken. Those kinds of stunts and claims only add to mess of confusion and divert peoples attention away from the more sensible points and principles. Would I use those examples to undermine a persons reasons for wanting to leave or remain? No - not unless they were attempting to press those exact points as valid reasons for there choice.

My bottom line for why i lean on the leave side is simple, our current democratic system free from the EU increases our right to self determination (as a people), while being an EU member restricts it.
I prefer to be ruled by electable democrats (and their lobbyist mates), and not unelectable bureaucrats (and their lobbyist mates). Sorry I'd just rather not take the chance with politicians who are virtually accountable to no one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwzXi6niHW8

None of us know what will happen in the immediate aftermath or ten years down the line, after a no deal or a deal. we are all hedging bets on what we think will happen or what we hope will happen, nothing more.
And you are no exception.

I highly doubt you can prove anything by 'quoting from this thread'.
Its likely what you have is the same as the rest of us, speculation, links to media hit pieces that make various accusations (written by people no more honest than those they have in their cross hairs), and a certain amount of faith in your own narrative.
What we believe we we know and what we actually know are often not the same thing.

Only time will tell if you or I were right or not. So yes - we'll see indeed.

Good reading JU_88 :up:

Some very insightful reading here.

Ju88, it is hilarious how everyone still quotes Johnson's euromyths including you or this video with the "unelected blah". Fish packed in plastic? Curve of bananas? Unelected bureaucrats? It is hard to believe Johnson believes in the BS he repeats saying. He recently repeated the 350 million pounds bs again!
I have posted a 200+ point list of intentional lies and myths about the EU but obviously no one cares.

B.t.w. Johnson has been fired back then because of inventing things out of the blue in his time as a correspondent in Brussels. And now he quotes his own made-up.. things you do not call lies, for "evidence" ? :haha:

What would you do if people repeatedly lie about you, trying to influence others to believe those lies about you, and then say that they want to discuss things on even terms with you wih a straight face? Screw them. Kick them. Out. I am astonished about the EU's patience. This is by far the point that aggravates me most in the last weeks.


No one understands the brexiters, not even in Romania, Hungary or Poland. They certainly applaud supporting their right wingers' ideas and drawing their advantages, but understanding why England does that? No.
Ignoring certain behaviour and believing false claims will not prevent it from biting in the long run. I mean brexit lies, you mean the EU.

It is like someone telling you the sun circles the earth and the moon is made of green cheese. And you just stand there, helpless and wondering what has gone wrong in this society.

I didn't listen to brexiteers or Boris, and I didn't listen to remainers either.
I quickly learned that neither were really worth listening to.

In 2016, I avoided the talking heads and media entirely, instead I read, listened and watched as much 'neutral-ish' info on the EU as my fee time allowed. (because finding anything neutral was hard)
And after all that it was still a fairly tough call, but leaned towards Leave.

You repeating what Boris said is neither here nor there. I don't listen to Boris.
but even a stopped clock can be right twice a day.

The Eu is indeed run by bureaucrats split over 3 different institutions, Parliament, Court of Justice and Bank. they are not voted in by the people of the blocs member states. Policy and legislation is determined by a few - in back rooms, The MEPs (we CAN vote for) can vote yes or no when its presented to them, but they can't suggest revisions or changes. And if they vote no, revisions are made in back room and the legislation is presented back to them again.... and again until they vote 'Yes' and it can be passed. So when you vote for your MEP, you basically voting in a person who you hope can help QA all new EU legislation with as much power as the 'yes / no' button gives them. And they have no power to request anything be reappealled once its been passed.

So are you saying that's a Boris lie? or are you saying you consider that process to be democratic?

I'm not interested in hearing anymore about Boris - or projections about what east Europeans think of me, which are reliably based on?.... god knows what.
I'm not a Daily mail reader.
But Feel free to tell me why you think I should support the EU, instead of endlessly asserting that I'm being lied to. - I know, but we are all being lied to Catfish.

What it boils down to is that I believe Britain future chances of survival out side the EU, are marginally greater the EU's future survival as a whole.
Its a project based on slow but continuous expansion, that absorbs as much sovereign power as it reasonably can, It doesn't really want nations with indervidual Identities and democratic sovereign governments at all, those are inconveniences, it wants one uniform European Identity. One market, One Currency, One border, One Military. One big happy superstate built one piece at a time, and operated by a very small select few with almost no direct accountability to its people. Imagine how people would react if some one tried to introduce all of that collectivization and control in one decade?
yeah Its introduced very slowly and softly for a reason, to make it more palatable. But that is its ultimate ambition and its no secret, it openly and proudly admits as much..
Political, market and monetary union is fine, but that is really only the beginning as far as the EU is concerned.
To my mind that is both kinda creepy and over-ambitious, and i really don't think it will work, given Europe's demographic and significant cultural differences.
but I'll leave you to tell me why you think its a good thing.

Am I listening to myself here...? :)

^^ So you did not get a voting ticket it the 2019 EU elections? :hmmm:

http://theconversation.com/european-...t-paper-116975

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/united...ng_system.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49671566

That depends on the supreme court hearing next week.

Already from 2018, with a lot of brexit lies laid open:

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-the-brexiters

Lies or truth do not matter.
“It’s too late. We won and there’s nothing you little people can do about it.”
(Dominic Cummings)
The right does not want Britain to take back control. It wants to control Britain, and anyone who gets in its way is a fake, a grandstander, an enemy or saboteur. It has worked nicely, and England and the UK are on an interesting way.

Kai, I think you may be drifting away from the point Francis is making. Your post quoted above is in relation to the election of MEP's when the point he is making (see below) is in regard to who actually determines policies and legislation.

Whilst on the topic of 'lies' I suppose Boris would have to say that so the Supreme Court will be the final arbiter.

^^ i would call this representative democracy, which in no way is different from England's government elections, or german, or french etc., for that matter ?

"Every government has bureaucrats which are by nature unelected. While the EU has around 33,000 of them, the British government employs over 400,000 civil [my edit: unelected] servants."
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lseupr/2019/...d-bureaucrats/

Also here:
https://www.economist.com/the-econom...ed-bureaucrats

The complaint might be that not only junior EU officials, but many senior ones are appointed rather than elected. This, too, is true of all governments. British papers that disparage the "unelected" Michel Barnier, the EU’s lead Brexit negotiator, would struggle to find a country that has an elected trade representative. And Juncker or now Mrs von der Leyen are not deciders or rulers of the executive, but rather mediators.

You vote for a person of whom you expect to represent your ideas most or best. True, in England some.. rulers are born into the house of Lords without having to prove competence or knowledge in a class society, nor do they need to have a people's majority for their position.
(But as Stephen Fry said, "why not, as long as it works")
Not that elected politicians are necessarily better qualified, though there are some (even if it's a rare breed).

But you cannot quite compare this to the EU, and the "unelected bureaucrats" acccusation does not hold water. No, indeed it does not, look at the links i posted, and not for the first time.

MEP's cannot present your ideas at all, they can In accordance with your ideals. Vote yes or no to the ideas presented to them that were draughted behind closed doors, by the special people.
:hmmm:
You the voter of the MEP have the most distant and watered down impact imaginable. Its great we can vote for MEPs, unfortuntley MEPs can't do very much.

A Guardian opinion peice on Brexiteers? hmm, I'm sure that will be fair and balanced.
Would you unironically read a Daily Express opinion piece on Remainers?

Anyway I've not heard of Dominic Cummings, any reason should I care about him or Nick Cohens opinion? Catfish?
:)
Look maybe we leave with no deal on the 31st (probably not) and all the Remain Predictions will come true. Then I will happily admit i got it wrong, until then its just more chatter,
I'm fairly content I reached my own conclusion with out listening to too many hacks along way. Who lied about what and who claimed what is quite irrelevant to me personally.
i don't even know who half these people are.

I'll read your links when you read my personal reasons for a being a EU skeptic and respond with something relevant to that.
Rather than over simplified 'this why Brexiteers are stupid and horrible' points.

And you can note that not once, have I said anything derogatory about Remainers in general.