First you condemn all religions and then begin to find excuses for Jews. Fine logic there, buster. :-?

We think about the the same way.:DL
But as living in a nation state i have also concern to to keep it that way, i want controlled immigration by people that will assimilate here.

Not to excuse the Hamas Charter, but in general, you have to be careful about reading official arab texts too literally or interpreting them through the filter of Anglo-Saxon culture.

In Britain and countries which follow its traditions (USA, Canada, etc.), public texts/speech generally either understate or state clearly the intent of the writer.

In more latin countries, for example, France, Italy, Quebec, there is a tendency to exaggerate and use more extremist language than what the real intent of the writer is. In Arab countries, this is even more exaggerated and you may read a text which looks like a declaration of war when that is not at all the intent of the writer.

This can often lead to serious mis-communications. For example, prior to 1967, Nasser often talked about wiping Israel off the face of the earth and made other warlike actions (remilitarisation of the Sinai, closing Sharm-Al-seikh) which caused Israel to think Egypt was planning to attack. Historical research since then has shown that Nasser never seriously planned to attack Israel, but was making his extreme pronouncements to solidify his personal popularity and power at home.

The Hamas charter may be what they actually think or it may just be an intial bargaining position, only time will tell. You have to take the written word or speech with a grain of salt.

Actions are the real litmus test, for example do they stop rocket attacks, do they start to bargain, etc.. Everything in the ME takes a long time.

Sometimes i think you are a muslim. :D

Jews are not about religion for a very long time-I'm atheist but im Jew.
I also don't remember Jews fighting holly wars or forcing Judaism on others.

Oh right .....we just want take over the world with money and power.:arrgh!::up:

No excuses at all. This subject comes up a lot here (religion), and I am 100% consistent.

I condemn religion, but as a pragmatist, and a history buff, I can realize that some religiously informed cultures have evolved to "enlightenment" while others have not.

If you read, you'd know I didn't defend jews, either. Spinoza was only a jew ethnically (a real distinction that the Spaniards invented after they decided they wanted to persecute conversos after they got too many takers when they threatened to kill them all). As a rationalist, he was outside religion, really.

My point was that while non-violently excommunicated in one faith, he'd have been murdered under Islam—and possibly Christianity as well during that period.

As I have said before, even if we assume the Enlightenment happened in spite of religion, it happened in spite of Judeo-Christianity. It was never allowed to happen in spite of Islam.

So while I think all are equally silly, the practice of some have allowed for secular, pluralistic societies to come about, while others have retained their iron-fisted repression on such ideas.

Muslim Brotherhood and affiliates are not the same as Nasser, they want it all.
They only take cease fires so they can grow in power, that is all you will get from them.

How on earth was that wrong, they apologised and said their claim was false.

Yes, unfortunately its very fitting all too frequently.

Was it really? thats a very broad brush

Bilge-Rat, their Charter is their Charter. I take it at face value, and everyone should do so and treat them accordingly. If that is a problem for them, they can retract the document, and write another, it is what it is, and any Hamas member in fact endorses that document as written by virtue of party affiliation.

Other supporters only support it the way an American nazi supported Nazism in ww2.

You'll find that all those related organizations have similarly hateful "mission statements."

It appears they apologized for airing an edited version. Not for faking it.


Hamas is a terrorist organization.

That makes supporting Hamas supporting a terrorist organization. It's a very narrow brush, in fact. The Muslim Brotherhood is where AQ came from. Ditto.

You said the tape was fake? Was it?
Answer you clown.:stare:

Only one clown here and that's you.

I think the technical term for the document is a floridly rambling piece of crap.

Not quite, there are lots of branches tha have come out of enlightenment in Islam, but the mainstream still call them heretics and apostates.

Thats a prickly issue.

How about I stop using the word "terrorist" since I don't care about that one way or another, frankly.

Instead, substitute "Islamist" or "Islamist group that supports intentional attacks on civilians" where I said terrorist.

Hamas explicitly supports such attacks, as do AQ, al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, Islamic Jihad and some others.

Huh?
http://blog.nermo.com/wp-content/upl...redherring.png