But what good is downloading it if you don't have the lawyers training to decipher it? For a great majority of the public, relying on others is not a choice or a preference but a necessity.

Cleared the first part, now on to debating sessions.:up:

pfffft debate. It's like debating with your mom.

Here is what your going to eat and your going to like it.

It is not debating. It is Harry Reid buying votes. Those votes will be bought with our tax dollars. Simple as that and a screwed up system. :down:

Did you feel the same way when Bill Frist was the Majority Leader?

Don't get all worked up about it, Plat. It's just amusing to watch what they have to say, due to them having to face the facts which they don't much care for lol. And the fact is, the bill is going to pass in the end.:yeah:

Something's probably going to pass in the end. But guaranteed, it ain't going to be a liberal's wet dream. And it's going to be a taxpayer's nightmare. You know, the people who actually grow and sustain the private sector, and make the economy work. There's a whole lot of crap in this legislation. And still many hurdles to get through.

Bottom line. This healthcare bill has simply turned into a "pass anything at all costs, even if it sucks" for Democrats in Congress and Obama.

The fact that these Democrats have to advance this crap late on Saturdays when everyone is asleep on the East Coast or out doing weekend stuff, and the media cycles for the week are over is only a reflection on how liberals (Democrats) think of representative government. They don't like it or respect it. They intend to do this under the radar and out of sight. Pathetic.

My thinking at this point...the Democrats are a joke. They're utterly worthless. Pass anything despite it being crap, and the fact that most people in this country don't want it shows that the Democrats at this point are clueless. This country now has unemployment at 10.5% and growing, and we have a situation in Afghanistan not being seriously looked at by the administration, and these i-dots are working this issue??!!? Most people are concerned about the economy and don't give a wit about this legislation.

Anyway, the independents are leaving Democrats. And rightly so. One of the issues Republicans lost their majority for was out of control spending, and the Democrats will lose theirs for the same reason. Mostly because Democrats have shown themselves to be a whole lot worse since January. And they're aloof on every single other issue of importance. Don't think it won't be any different. They'll pass an expensive crap bill...you're probably right. But it will not help Democrats keep their majority. Especially since it will cost upfront and no so-called "benefits" are expected until 2013. If people are spending more, and don't see any improvement, or see problems which is almost a guarantee, Democrats will pay the price.

Oh, good. So, can you answer my questions? Do you know what exactly it is your are so in favor of?





I'm inclined to agree. What I am thinking, we all should ditch our private insurance coverage and get on the govt dole. And then use the coverage to the max. Let's see how great an idea this is then.:cool: Becasue, you know the people who are paying for this will do it.

Yeah, why not. Hell. I have more family members on my wife's side on the dole that they have become professionals at it. Really, it is a career. So I'm going to jump on the band wagon and get mine. :88) See you at my house! I will be the one on the couch watching the soap operas. :doh:

Something will pass but not what they want. The abortion aspect will be the killer of the bill. This will be the answer as to why the Dems failed to pass the bill. Failure of the bill will be pinned on the Republicans and a picture will be painted in 2012 as to why Republicans hate everyone so do not bother voting for them.

Bill Frist was not putting the thumb screws to me. So, no I do not feel the same way. You have to remember Platapus, this healthcare bill is just one of many bills coming my way that will tax my income. My small tax break of about $7/week is now absolutely worthless and I will probably be taxed double if not triple the $7/week that Obama graciously returned to me.

Regardless of the peoples will.

To be honest SW, there in is the problem. One would think the golden key to the crapper was handed over. Anything goes as they see fit. It is ridiculas the amount of spending going on and it is wild spending. There is no thought about the issue at hand. It is such a blantant snub at the public.

"Regardless of the people'S will" ...?

I cannot get the impression from both American and european news coverage that there is a substantial, overwhelming majority of the American people objecting to these plans. It is a prominent number of people, yes - but let'S do not mistake noisiness with numerical superiority.

the US health system, to my best knowlege, is said to be the most expensive in the West. At comparable quality and competence levels, the Us system was calculated in past years to be twice as costly (per head) as for example the German and French systems. But you do not get twice as much quality, but roughly it is en par with what you get in germany. This is due to massive lobbyism of the pharmaceutical industry, and med-tech lobbies. We have this lobbyism, too, germany is the most expensive european drug market, but still we are only half as expensive than your system is. This prevention of reasonable price fixing obviously is no concern for you guys, although it costs your people many hundreds of billions per year. Why do you will to pay twice as much for what we get for half the money over here? :03:

and the follow-up costs of a population massively turning to obesiety due to bad food habits, is calculated in different studies to cost between 150 and 400 billion (in the US). Again, no problem for you, who cares.

But a mandatory insurrance system where also those 30+ million currently excluded could benefit from health care that is not oin the level of a third world desaster area - there goes the mood up in temperature, this shall not be, this is socialism! :88)

I find this self-contradiction both fascinating and entertaining, especially when hysterics turn noisy on TV and start talking of death camps and Nazi-ideology. We have it on TV occasionally, when especially drastic freaks get reported in the daily news, at the end, to give the audience something to laugh about.

what do we learn from it? It is not so much about additional costs and growing debts (for the most it is us non-americans anyway being effected by your national debts), and it is not about the possible flaws in the draft for the reform - it is about dogmatic ideology in the first, and nothing else.

One would asusme there should be more important things on people's mind than blowing this thing up in size. what you consider to be the manifesdtation of Sartanic evil - in all other parts of the civilised West is considered to be a most natural thing only.

If those hundreds of billions in additional debts would be caused by raised military spendings, most of you would not complain, and even less so with that same enthusiasm you complain about the health reform. ;)

Well you may get that impression but its simply not true. The polling data has shown so time and time again. If it were somehow to be put to a vote by the american public it would not only go down it would go down by a wide margin.

I wish I could understand what some of you (those against the bill) are so worried about.
We have had this system of healthcare in the UK for decades and while it its by no means perfect, I still wouldnt trade it in for what you guys currently have in place. (not everyone chooses to be poor you know.)

IMHO, all this talk of turning to 'Socialism' seems rather paranoid to me. As if somehow, by next year everything will be state owned and you will all be arrested for speaking out against Premier Obama and his evil Soviet/terrorist ways :haha:.

Can some one please tell why are words like 'Socialism' and 'Liberal' seem to be such dirty words in so many Amercian vocabularies? This i do not understand at all -they are not so frowned upon in the rest of the western world thats for sure..
Feel free to explain it to me.

And hey ...Since when did Capliatism become the greatest regime ever invented anyway? Sure in someways its great, but its also about at stable as 200 foot statue made of soup, look at the way we just had a recession caused by lack of regulation on the way our bankers conduct themselves.
Thanks to our system of 'free enterprise' they abused it and screwed us all. There is a down side to everything, is there not?

Im just saying, there is no harm in taking elements from socialism or where ever - and applying them in areas where the curent system is flawed.
If it improves things for most Amercian people - that is all that matters in my eyes.

It dosent matter if the cat is black or white so long as it catches mice ;)
Love him or hate him, there is one fact you cannot deny Barack Obama - he is a very brave guy indeed.