I second that, Spaxspore. Well said, mate!

Reply to playing as German in Sims
 

Hi there,
I was very touched by your question not least because of a long family history with Germany. I'm sorry I have to write this in English, my apologies for not speaking German.

Many years ago I visited Germany, in the Stuttgart area around Blau Springs and Ulm. We went there to visit an old family friend who was a German student who stayed with our family in England off and on through the 60's.

One day, in the middle of winter we visited a very small church in the country, where as a small boy I was horified to see pictures of German soldiers on the walls of the church, the photos were commemorations of local German boys who had died in the war.

My Dad, who is Jewish turned to me and said something that will remain with me for the rest of my life, simply put, the boys in those photos in that church, may have been fanatics, perhaps not, but they did have families and their mothers had the right to mourn the loss of their sons as much as any other.

The lesson is this, what states do to other states or individuals can’t be helped, what matters is what individuals do when the chips are down.

For this reason I am perfectly happy to play as a U-Boat commander. The historic record tells us that far from the monsters the Allies tried to portray them, many U-Boat commanders were utterly civilised, humane human beings, who tried to offer some assistance to their victims.


Play the game, enjoy the history, at the end of the day German history is not so far distant from that of any other great nation.


I hope by my reply I have not, and od not offend any one who reads this.



Regards
Rascal.

I forget exactly which book it was, I got it from the Library. However I recall reading that fact in a few books. And how do you suppose it is preposterous? In matters of the Navy he wasn't so decisive when his advisors said it was a bad idea. And how is that fact preposterous given the very widely documented Laconia affair?

Once again, you are very much entitled too your opinions...but this is very much off topic. If you want to start a different "Nazi's were not so bad but those Jews..." thread, have at it...but not here. I find this thread fascinating...but not your comments, just my opinion. Moderator, Please break out your hatchet again ;)

Well said:|\\

I have never bought into these discussions, as I feel they are without relevence, but since this has gone on for five pages, I will do so now.

I enjoy submarine simulations. That is exactly what I am playing in SH3. I am playing with pixels. The voices are in German. The designs are based on a German u-boat from the Second World War. However, no consequence hangs on my actions. No one dies when a ship is sunk. No political rational is vindicated on victory, nor is it condemed on defeat. No swastika hangs in the virtual air.

In this, it is no different than playing as a Victor III in Sub Command (with SCU), or playing as a Perry FFG in Dangerous Waters. It is no different than playing as a Special Operations soldier in the Rainbow Six series, or an Su-33 in LOMAC. It is no different than playing as the Holy Roman Empire in Medieval Total War, or the Britons in Age of Empires II.

There is nothing political about any of it. It is a game. It is trivial. It is intended to be both of the afforementioned: Nothing more, nothing less. If more is seen there, then it is placed there by the user. I save my intuition for more important matters.

This is correct. What we are doing is playing a game and enjoying our shared interest in that game. The very notion of guilt or stigma in enjoying that is preposterous, as is the idea that anyone should feel shame in portraying a Kriegsmarine ubootmann or a member of any of Germany's defence forces. It is that position which should be attacked, for it is purely without merit.

Members of my family served in all arms of the British forces, the RAF, the Royal Navy and the Army (parachute regiments I believe) throughout the war. While I cannot agree with their decision to do so, I was not present at the time and they were grown men capable of making their own decisions for right or for wrong. It is not my place to pass judgment on my family members, nor is it anyone elses to pass judgment on the men who served the call with honor in Germany. I know first hand that my grandfather's political opinions, like the majority of Irishmen, were closer to that of Nazi Germany than the position advocated by Britain during the war, but he served as an Irish volunteer nonetheless. One can only say that it is a great shame that Europeans suffered in an unnecessary war, a war that with European led diplomacy would surely have been avoided.

My view's pretty much the same. It's a game, nothing more.

Unfortunately, I'll admit to having a very slight hang-up (Pasted from the Mercantile Marine.org forum):

Third Officer John Milne was my Great-Uncle.:cry:

As a result, I have a tendency to avoid the area around the Rockall Bank. Silly, perhaps, but it's there.

U-136 was subsequently sunk west of Maderia by a French Destroyer and a British Frigate and Sloop. No survivors either.

RIP Uncle Alec.

Mike.

I extend my deep sympathy on your loss.

As said by a few others, I have been a little reluctant to post on this thread, despite the perfectly innocent questions raised by the originator.
Speaking purely on a personal level, as an ex-Merchant Navy Navigation Officer, I play SH3 primarily because I enjoy playing the "game", I find the whole graphics and atmosphere pretty realistic (after a touch of mega-modding!), and to a certain extent it takes me back to some of my times out on the deep, dark seas.
The fact that I am playing the role of a Uboat Captain, and therefore obviously German, does not enter into it. It would be the same if I were role-playing as the Captain of one ofthose annoying little Flower Corvettes, or the poor old Tankers that we all try so hard to find. At the end of the day (Oh, how I hate that phrase!) we are all simply role-playing.
I must admit that I do, where possible, play as realistically as I can, in that I use 100% Realism, All-manual targetting, etc. i also try to use correct real-life people as my crew and officers, though it is not always possible to use an entire "real" crew from one particular Patrol, I use a mix of crew that served on board my particular Uboat at some stage during their careers. The most important thing, to me, in using real people in my Patrols is that I always, without fail, will attempt to bring some dignity to my actions while playing SH3, and in some cases try to give some poor Matrosengefreiter who in reality was killed in, say, 1940 on his first patrol, some kind of reincarnation, even if only in a computer game. I have the ultimate respect for all those either killed, injured, or survived the REAL Uboat War, and I try my best to show them that respect in my gameplay.
To me, my SH3 crew become real people, and I treat them as such, as in correct watch rotation, shoreleave, and correct Station assignment. I usually get angry with myself, if I allow one of my crew to be killed whilst serving under my command.

OK, so some may think I'm taking things a bit far, but I really enjoy the "immersion" that building these relationships can breed. I am one of those SH3 players who get just as much satisfaction from returning from Patrol with only one miserable Coastal Merchant to my credit, but having survived numerous heavy DC attacks and finally crept away from a persistent escort with my boat and crew in one piece, as I do when returning without seeing a single Destroyer and racking up 50000 tons of sunken ships.

The nationality, politics, or any other difference between people is irrelevant. The men who served in the Ubootewaffe did so with just the same dedication, trepidation, and sometimes terror, as their british or American or otherwise counterparts. We were, or are, all "men of the sea" and thus have a mutual bond that surpasses any national or political boundaries.

Just MHO

cheers

Exactly mate. Precisely what I have tried to say though your words carry more gravity considering your history.

I agree with that sentiment as well. Someone once said that countries fight for causes, and leaders fight for different reasons, but the soldier (sailor) in the field fights for his comerades, friends, buddies, and little else. That's why shows like Band of Brothers and, yes, Das Boot have such a strong effect on the viewer: it's the relationships between the men that make the show work, not the action or the attitude toward the enemy.

That's one of the things that make air and naval sims like this worth playing. In a small way we develop that same sort of bond: we may never meet, and really we're just pretending to fight a war, but look at how much time and effort we spend to relate our different and yet common experiences. Reading about someone's adventures (and misadventures) playing a stupid game makes me feel like I know that person just a little better, simply because we share a passion for something.

I LOVE YOU TOO MAN! *bursts into tears and buries face into Steve's chest*

Group Hug!


Jcc

No problem here it's only PC game and they were only soldiers. They had to do their job as the fellows on opposite side. I was in a Army and you find that reason you fight or join is not much for Ideals or leaders as is for your mates. As you can see on my sig "NAK" or in German "DAK" is North Afrika Korp which was German unit and my + 60 others have no problem naming our gaming community after German unit

Quote:

"Hitler wanted Uboats to kill any survivors it encountered though Doenitz insisted no." No offense, but it sounds pretty preposterous. May I ask what's your source is on this?

I believe I read it in both "Cursed sea" by Cajus Bekker and "The Battle of the Atlantic" by Andrew Williams. Don't have the time to look up the pagenumbers, but I can reommend reading these books anyway. "Cursed sea" delves deeply into the personalities of Raeder and Dönitz and how their character traits impacted upon naval strategy. Their relations with Hitler are covered less deeply, but still mentioned.
These orders being refused isn't surprising though. Luftwaffe fighter ace Adolf Galland succesfully resisted Hermann Goering's order to fire on parachuting aircrew...

Kind regards,

Eichenlaub

Dear subsimmers,

I've not been able to respond in full to this thread for the past days, but I did read up occasionally. I feel that some of the statements here are a little too black or white.

Statements here concerning the honourability and fighting motives of the "average German soldier" were on the whole very forgiving. I think the subject is too difficult to generalize so easily. My position on the matter is somewhat different from many of you I suppose. My position is that in those days, there were too many types of people in the Reich, doing their things for all kinds of different reasons, to easily arrive at assumptions, one-liners or generalizations.

There were ardent nazi's, half-hearted nazi's and people who stepped in line just because they didn't know any better or were lacking in insight, or thought they were doing their country a favour, or were misled or even plain stupid. At the height of nazi-popularity, somewhere in 1938 (IIRC), the nazi's could count on support from about 38% of the nation. After that, Germany went on a collision course with the rest of the world at such a pace that the nazi's support base decreased. This means that in ordinary life, about 1 in 3 persons could be involved to some degree in nazism. That's a major issue, here's why: it is incredibly difficult to tell how involved a person was and consequently, how "right" or "wrong" a person or group was during the war.

Seeing as the nazi movement was designed by Hitler to appeal to broad population segments and was actually capable of transgressing intuitive contradictions (nationalists and socialists didn't share their coffee ladies & gentlemen, yet the party was named National-Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiters Partei), the movement achieved a following throughout every layer of the German people. From politicians to intellectuals to grocers to labourers.

From the previous two paragraphs we can deduce that this broadly layered movement must be reflected in the armed forces. There may have been sections within the armed forces that were slanted more towards or away from nazism, but generally the tenet holds true that "every unit had his nazi". Unfortunately I've lost the name of the historian I just quoted, but the truth of it must be evident. Furthermore, I feel that one nazi per unit could be a low estimate, depending on the unit size. To retain our submarine setting, I think that a typical crew of 48 would contain about 10-16 hands of nazi incliniation. And now we arrive at a problem we just encountered at the end of my third paragraph: the level of indoctrination, or how convinced were those nazis? The question cannot be answered by any of us, after all these years.

A new question pops up right after the previous assertion, and it is this: so these nazis are in a military unit, a submarine in our example, but to what extent would one really notice this? There were nazis who didn't impose their views, or didn't go about lecturing others - at least not during combat conditions. Then there were the hardcore chaps who went really far with their views; I need to remind very few of you of what happened to Oscar Kusch of U-154.

The war has been over for 61 years now, and a lot of distortion creeps in during such a lengthy period. People have a need to deal with their past and possibly guilt, which can lead to some recolouring of events. There is still a fog of war out there.

All of these problems lead me to the conclusion that generalizing is rather dangerous. Instead I opt to look at things as close as possible, at the individual if possible. It's a difficult approach. Keep looking for the truth - it's usually grey.

I'll write more when I can spare the time again.

Kind regards,

Eichenlaub

I hope your not looking for pittiy because you will not find it here, your peopole at that time The (Germans) attacted the britts, and wee as americans don't like that '!!
we don't like to see our Friends get the shaft. :nope:

:huh:

They did what to the Brits? Attacted? What the hell is that? Sounds like some type bad name for an underarm deodorant...

Commercial:

When you're feeling unfresh, grab the stick that does the trick, so you can go through your day with confidence knowing that you are protected by ATTACTED. Yes, that's right! ATTACTED, the revolutionized new underarm deodorant by Mennen. It sticks to your underarm to give you long lasting, all day freshness and protection from wetness and odor, so when your boss asks you to hand over that report, you can do it knowing full well that he's smelling your fresh new scent.



Warning: Side effects may cause itching, burning, watery eyes, runny nose, coughing, sneezing, nausea, stomach ache, headache, back pain, chest pain, swelling, rash, diarrhea, gonorrhea, syphillis, HIV, AIDS, impotence, cancer, liver disease, heart disease, kidney disease, parkinson's disease, cooties, SARS, muscle pain, joint pain, blisters, genital warts, herpes, lice, scabies, trichomoniasis, vaginal yeast infections, chlamydia, nose bleeds, gas, lumps, stumps, bumps, and bird flu.



By MENNEN