In my opinion, it would be great with a new subsim about the Cold War, many people are already tired with WW2 subsims. Or maybe an early Cold War sim
with diesel subs like the Whiskey and Barbel? Like a 1960's online-based open-source sim :D?

Nope
 

I'm not optimistic at all about the future of these sims.

If we were still in the days of independent studios putting out quality games - I might have some hope; but in this day of a handful of bloated corporate entities owning everything, I'd say we've seen the last of any presentable submarine simulations.

And I'd rather Ubi stay out of the equation altogether - they've done enough damage. Selling a rough framework of a game at full price and then expecting a small niche of modders to spend the next 2 years making it playable is insulting. Fool me once, shame on Ubi, fool me two or three times...well...

Our only salvation would be some small company out of nowhere surprising us with a great, working sub-sim that would set a new standard.

But realistically, I don't see that happening.

Developing a new game
 

I am not native English so excuse me if it is difficult to understand some parts.

I found this thread really interesting, and looks like some people think that developing a new game should be a good option, you know, hire some developers and start building the code. Let me tell you what's my opinion about that. Of course, I may be wrong, probably I am wrong but some may feel it useful.

First a bit of background.

I always wanted to play a game which no one seems to be interested into developing. speaking with my friends/colleagues about it they told me that now days with plenty of game engines available it is an easy task, so I decided to code my dreamed game my self.

My programing experience dated from 15 years ago, using the old Turbo C or Turbo Pascal on MSDOS when I was a student, after that I just coded small bash/perl scripts to help in my day work. No knowledge of OOP, or modern languages/IDEs ...

First I decided which language should I use, finally I decided python due everybody said it is easy. Then I tried some free game engines, after some trials I chose a big and well documented engine which seemed ideal for my proposals.

Then I sit on my chair and started to code, but after a while I realized that game building is not about programing, first and foremost you need to desing the game, define its rules, its parts, its dynamics ...

Led me try to explain with an example. I am a big fan of UFO game, there is a open source project that is coding a new engine for it [openXcom]. A gamer can play the original one, or the new project and he will not appreciate any differences, indeed if you don't tell him he will think that he is playing the same game. Yep, the same game but they don't share a single line of the code.

So the game is above the code/engine used, now days you can implement it with a great number of technologies, some will need more resources other less but if the game is not well designed it doesn't matter the technology used, it will be a fiasco.

In my humble opinion, if the community wants to build their own subsim, they need good game designers, and there is no need of good coding skills or technology knowledge from the start, rather than, a well though game mechanics is far more important.

When you have the game designed and began to code it, no matter which technology was finally chosen, you realize that a good code doesn't means a great game. Yep, it seems obvious but some times the quantity and quality of work outside of coding doesn't seems well pondered. It is not just good quality artwork even the gamer orders flow needs to be work with well designed user interface, which its not easy.

That's the reason why most open source games looks so awful, yep there is plenty of talented developers which can code by free, but its hard to join them with talented 3D designers, music mens, ...

A community developed game would be really nice, but rather than go en hire developers opening a wiki to start a brain storming ideas for the game may be better.

If some one has read all the brick, thank you for you patience with an old guy. :)

I love this type of game.
As to the future of games like it?
Well, tbh, I think that todays generation of young gamers want instant gratification, easy kills, cheats and awesome firepower.

Games like Silent Hunter unfortunately do not fit into this demographic, requiring skill, routine and patience to excel effectively.

To move forward, this genre would need to appeal to both demographics and essentially widen the market.

To appeal to the first SUBset [pardon the pun] it would possibly have to take the form of an arcadey open world format, whereby you have a semi-linear storyline with main missions,a protagonist, ally characters, enemies and an arch nemisis.
Side missions would fill out the game and various "power ups" not related to realism would fulfill the urge of those who feel the necessity to disproportionally wipe everything out of existance.

To appeal to the purist however, the game would need a slightly different tone, still open world play but with the emphasis on realism with attentive graphics and an immersive (should I say SUBmersive for pun no.2!) environment.
It wouldn't change too much from Silent Hunter 3 (not played other versions) in the fact that micro management of several details such as crew, weapons, fatigue, damage etc but with definate improvements related to modern computer hardware to bring it into the 21st century.
The possibility of a choice of theatres from WW2 until present day could appeal with some interesting what if scenarios.
The ability to create your own story is paramount here.

Needless to say, online gaming is also an important part of anygame in this current day and age and would probably appeal to both the gamers and the purist.

Anyway, just my two penneth worth...

as much as it pains me to say it the subsim genre is more than likely dead. no corporation will want to pump money in the development of something that only 5-10% of the gaming community will consider buying and of that only 2-5% will accualy buy. it will probably end in us poor chaps making our own games and even then we will slowly die away because every few people get recruited to the subsim genre and of those are the survivors who are not immediately turned off by games like SH5. People just don't seem to have the respect for the games and what they stand for. like today many people don't hear about the battle of the atlantic they hear more about the land battles than the fear of Uboats.

I hate to say it but you may be right. I am part of what used to be a thriving wargaming community where I live - dozens of players here and hundreds all over the country - playing boardgames and tabletop miniatures games. It was common for us to have at least ten people show up on any game night, which may not sound like a lot but that was for our favorite group of games, and there were many others playing games that we weren't interested in. Today we meet every other Thursday and there are never more than five of us. The hobby shop is filled with people playing fantasy wargames and roll-playing games, but the historical stuff seems to be dying out.

I have high hopes for future subsims, mainly because there hasn't been one yet that I consider truly complete, but while my hopes are high my expectations aren't. Of course it's partly my fault because my interests are very narrow.

i know what you mean there is a comic book store near me sells axis and allies stuff but they have more things like magic the gathering and other games that get far more attention. it is a shame that very few of my generation can appreciate a historical game. perhaps they don't understand what could have happened. thats why i play and when i play i legitimately think i can win the war.

I just feel bad that one of the genres that i enjoy the most may no longer be around 10 years from now... i just hope i am wrong

Historical Games are the best!
 

The first game I played was Medal of Honor PS1, I've been playing almost nothing but historical war games ever since. My only hope is for ever more realistic representations of the wars of old on my PC, mostly WW2, and perhaps if somone would produce a shooter, simulation, etc. that is as acurate to the experience of that war as can possibly ever be made, then people will understand. The modern man has a type of man which no longer exists as a result of the modern world to thank for eveything they have and take for granted! I am a very strong minded person and very rarely shed a tear, but somtimes I cry when I see a video of USS Arizona, and know that it took some of those poor heroes three days to run out of air down there in an inpenitrable steel tomb, or some other clip of the absolute hell they lived in. For three days you could hear men tapping the steel inside the ships, and know there was no way to save them. And I can not understand how a world full of people who has those men to thank for their freedom, to be either ignorant of it, or unapreciative of that sacrifice, I find it disgracful and sickening! And an unrealistic game is almost an insult to the men who lived it, because realistic games are a good way for the young men today to remember the old, and the dead.

Yes, that's true...I only know one buddy, who has in general interest about (modern) history and with whom I can discuss related topics.

Luckily, in the board gaming sector, in the last couple of years a couple of solitaire games came out, which make a lot of fun....usually I am not a WWII subsim fan but U-Boat Leader together with the fan-made tactical expansion I can strongly recommend. There are also other WWII solitaire boardgames available, with a more strategic setting.

Concerning subsims in general: crowdfunding or the approach, which the warfaresim.com guys took...

Guys, all I can say is dont give up. I remember flight sims, going through this about 5 years ago, and while we still don't have loads of sims coming out, the flight sim community is fairly healthy and we now have some stunning sims to choose from, and the future is looking fairly good.

While I agree that it is unlikely we will get any help or intrest from large studios these days, and since Ubisoft own the Silent Hunter name it's a pretty good guess that sadly that sim has sunk without trace.

With the new use of Kickstarter, it is now possible, so long as we have a talented bunch who is willing to make us a good subsim, for it to happen.

I mean, look at the success of Star Citizen, and again that is a genre everyone said was dead, think they are only 50k away from hitting 9 million raised through donations, now that shows the power of the people.

Yes we are a niche genre, BUT simmers have never been known for accepting defeat and where there is a will there is a way. I do strongly believe that there is a place for a accurate 100% submarine simulation. The only question is which time period. I believe there would be intrest in any period, so long as the simulation is accurate enough. A full on living and breathing submarine, all switches, doors, hatches etc fully working. Maybe with Multi player crew positions. All with a historical accurate world, correct paint work, radio transmissions etc etc. A lot of work, but certainly nothing that isn't acheivable. Hell our wonderful modders have done a lot of the work to make the world look and feel realistic already.

I for one, would certainly be happy to back something like this on kickstarter. Where there's a will there is a way. While certainly at the moment, we are sinking fast, there is still a hope we can blow those tanks and limp back to port, before coming back out and blowing everyone away.

Cowboy10uk

I think that even if subsims die out, they will come back.

Take the BBC TV show Doctor Who, for example. It ran from 1963-1989. It was canned because not many people were interested in it anymore. Then, in 2005, it was bought back by a man who had loved it as a child, and was in a position to bring it back. Someday, I'm sure that the same thing will happen with subsims.

Don't give up hope. In most cases it's all we have.

And that will be the key for the future. A Kickstarter project is the most likely prospect for a future submarine simulation. For those of us that don't code, like myself, it will be our job to be ready to support those type of projects with money.

EDIT: Some notable examples of Kickstarter success:


Wasteland 2 --

http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9hQWqtxXPU

Xenonauts --

http://www.xenonauts.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZILKabhJouI

Skullgirls --

http://skullgirls.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4oW5He_6x0

There's three refined, high quality, and in the case of Skullgirls, tangible products that were crowd funded on Kickstarter. If they can do it, well you know the rest.....

Xenonauts is probably the most reasonable meter of graphic/feature fidelity that can be expected from a kickstarter subsim. Anything approaching SH let alone surpassing it will not be done on a kickstarter budget alone. inXile for instance who ran the very successful Wasteland 2 and Torment kickstarters is still an established studio with other investors. Chris Roberts also has other investors involved outside of kickstarter.

So far we haven't seen any sims on kickstarter and I think in part this is because the sim community is known for having some very high (too high?) expectations on what they want from a sim. Personally I think the current hardcore sim model that focuses on systems fidelity only is flawed and I would not support such a kickstarter.

You miss Star Citizen from those. Its a space sim. They have raised 9.000.000 USD so far!

http://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/

I would like to see a modern Sub Command with lots of time to play on normal time or quick time if you could slew like on FSX, but the future
is surely not for your normal to higher intelligent players.

The future is lunch or on a commuter train going home to unwind or a doctor's visit or a passenger terminal or runway delay.

The future is mobil and touch screen and ugh consoles :oops:

Windows 8 touch screen is begging for a good sub sim game to just touch and the target becomes id'd with CIC being notified of your
intentions to fire upon a known or unknown target.
Scoring system would be like bowling with misses counting against you.

Employees love to surf and shop and even post in forums lol

So why not a quick way to relax? :)

Ubisoft's SHO? No thanks UBI! :/\\!!
Successor of Dangerous Waters? I have no hope!

And this is why: I Build my own simulator;)

Title of the Project: Submarine Simulator - The challenge.

Here is my first video about the project: http://youtu.be/6Y-NSQ2tunk

http://www.ubootsimulator.de
Website is in German. Translation follows ...

Sorry for my bad english...


Lars

hello there Heinrich Liebe ,

i am very impressed with your project and i am looking forward see it growing up :up:

good programmers are exactly the guys that are needed for a real simulator at first place so as i saw your post only possitive hopes comes in my mind that we may see a real good sim some day :yep:

congratulations Heinrich Liebe , you are doing amazing things there :salute:

ps: if you need any help that i can be usefull ,drop me a pm

Let me go off-topic for a moment and describe a weird dream I had last night.

So I load up Silent Hunter 6 for the first time. The big selling-point of this sim is that the player can control any crew member from a first-person perspective. So, the first thing I do is walk down to the engine room (which is the size of a cathedral and has a stone texture in the overhead, but never mind) and click on one of my mechanics. For some reason the screen starts flashing red, my guy starts groaning in pain, and my hit points are rapidly declining. He drops dead right there, so I select the other mechanic, and the exact same thing happens.

Right after the second mechanic dies, my boat loses all of it's diesel fuel in about 10 seconds, and a screen pops up saying that my submarine is stranded at sea and everyone onboard has died. What happened is that part of my mechanic's character models were colliding with the diesel engines, which only affected them when I was in their first-person view. The diesels ground up their hands when I selected them, causing enormous amounts of damage to the engines themselves. When the second mechanic was killed, my diesel hit points dropped to zero, and both exploded, making all the fuel leak out of the boat.

I think my dream was telling me that in the future, game developers need to be cautious during play-testing. Or that somebody besides Ubisoft should make subsims. Something like that.

I dare not say what I suspect but do a pregnancy check in the morning :O: