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-   -   Gun Violence and the outlawing of firearms in America (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=171649)

GoldenRivet 06-30-10 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna (Post 1431933)
Have you been drinking John or are you simply feeding scraps to a troll? :DL

He is surely starving?

wasnt there a lengthy stay in the brig involved? :hmmm:

CaptainHaplo 06-30-10 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis (Post 1431884)
I see a few people commented that they like to own/hold/fire their own guns. I don't see how that is relevant. Some people like to rape people - is that reason enough to make it legal for them to do so? Maybe I would "like" to shoot my own nukes at asteroids or big empty deserts or the south pole - so should I be able to buy nukes in Walmart? All I'm saying is that the case should be argued on more practical grounds. Argue for self-defense or pest control or whatever; "because I want one" doesn't really cut it.

I have to agree that the "because I want one" arguement doesn't cut it. I want a few million dollars, so maybe bank robbery should be legalized? I thought not. The right to bear arms is specifically protected for the right of self defence - against an overeaching government, as well as personal defence of life and property (though the property part has over time weakened).

Sailor Steve 06-30-10 05:18 PM

Actually it's the "rape" argument that doesn't really cut it. Some people like to hurt other people. That doesn't make it right or legal. But if someone wants to own a gun just because they like to go to the range and shoot, that "doesn't cut it"? Who are you to tell me what hobbies I can enjoy? Owning and shooting a gun in and of itself doesn't hurt anyone or deny any of their basic rights. Misuse of a weapon is already as illegal as misuse of superior body strength to hurt someone.

In this particular example the one has nothing to do with the other.

tater 06-30-10 05:42 PM

I think if they want to take guns, they should do it legally and repeal the 2d Amendment. Until they do that, they should stop messing with gun rights since it is explicitly protected. "The People" means just that. The 2d is the final check in the checks and balances.

GoldenRivet 06-30-10 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater (Post 1432099)
I think if they want to take guns, they should do it legally and repeal the 2d Amendment. Until they do that, they should stop messing with gun rights since it is explicitly protected. "The People" means just that. The 2d is the final check in the checks and balances.

If they repeal the second amendment you will probably have a civil war in America, even if they do it through legal channels.

too many people support it.

FIREWALL 06-30-10 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet (Post 1432169)
If they repeal the second amendment you will probably have a civil war in America, even if they do it through legal channels.

too many people support it.


If such a thing as a repeal were even tried a less drastic solution such as recalls and impeachment would be a likely result.

TLAM Strike 06-30-10 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet (Post 1431073)
yes... those guys are a tad out there :haha:

that is a fact.

the US Government has all the hardware it needs to control the people...

Yea cuz we are doing a great job using that hardware to control Afghanistan and Iraq.

Maybe it could force martial law on a state or two but but the US has some massive urban areas. Manhattan, Dallas-Fort Worth, LA. Think about it, the NYPD has the manpower and budget equal to that of some nation's armies- and still crime is a problem in NYC.

On the other side we have some truly massive rural areas- some with difficult terrain. Just think if some "Freedom Fighters" demoed the tunnel though Donnor Pass in Cali. You could nearly cut off half of California from the rest of the nation. Any "Government Occupation Force" would need to fly in everything. Think about the Rocky Mountains- that's eastern Afghanistan x20.

Also I can't help but think of one of the early Rainbow Six games where some crazy militia storms a Minuteman silo and threatens to launch on Washington.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus (Post 1431058)
I am a firm believer in strict gun control

1. Modified Weaver Stance
2. Good sight picture
3. Breath control
4. Smooth trigger action

:D

I too am a firm believer in strict gun control... I believe I should control the World with a really big gun. :03:

MH 06-30-10 07:52 PM

http://www.motifake.com/image/demoti...1256648463.jpg

gimpy117 06-30-10 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet (Post 1431422)

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._3219383_n.jpg

now i dont have a daughter... but i can guarantee you this; she would not only know where the pistol spends its dormant hours, but she would be well versed in its use by the age of 10

any why would your 10 year old daughter be alone in a city? screw the rapist part...if you need to arm your kids because your afraid they'll be off in random places getting into trouble, that's not a dangerous world...that's just bad parenting!

This whole what if some mad crazy psyco comes in and tries to harm me thing is a load of crap. Having good parenting skills, using locks, living in a safe neighborhood, and not showing off expensive goods to the street can go a long way...besides you're more likely to get shot with your own gun anyways.

Zachstar 06-30-10 08:33 PM

Other than a posters here sick description and in my opinion fantasy of saving the day with a gun. The image is of course bullcrap as said before.

You cant have a bunch of people just going to their friends house armed with a Glock. If it became well known that they were carrying guns attacks against them would skyrocket. Why? Because one of the main ways criminals acquire guns is robbing people with them.

I am for the 2nd amendment and I do believe in safe home defense with firearms but the nutjobs want guns everywhere with as little control as possible.

BTW that image with the sign that points to an anti-gun home is reckless endangerment and likely the law has already stepped in. Announcing a home is potentially ripe for attack is unlawful in any state. Oh and may they go to hell for their bullcrap.

Sailor Steve 06-30-10 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gimpy117 (Post 1432210)
...besides you're more likely to get shot with your own gun anyways.

Yep. "If you have a gun the bad guys will just take it away and shoot you with it." That happened here in Utah quite a few years back. Young husky burglar broke into the house of an elderly couple in the middle of the night. He coldcocked the old man in his bed and then proceeded to dig into the old lady's jewelry box. When she started screaming he decided to strangle her. As he was doing so she was scratching at his chest and stomach. When she felt the gun in his wasteband she yanked it out and shot him with it.

If that poor burglar hadn't had a gun the bad guy wouldn't have used it on him.

Any more platitudes?

OneToughHerring 06-30-10 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve (Post 1432295)
Yep. "If you have a gun the bad guys will just take it away and shoot you with it." That happened here in Utah quite a few years back. Young husky burglar broke into the house of an elderly couple in the middle of the night. He coldcocked the old man in his bed and then proceeded to dig into the old lady's jewelry box. When she started screaming he decided to strangle her. As he was doing so she was scratching at his chest and stomach. When she felt the gun in his wasteband she yanked it out and shot him with it.

If that poor burglar hadn't had a gun the bad guy wouldn't have used it on him.

Any more platitudes?

Got any actual stats to back up your quaint little stories?

August 06-30-10 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring (Post 1432304)
Got any actual stats to back up your quaint little stories?


Go away sonny. Grown ups are having a discussion using a lot of big words and ideas you wouldn't understand. :roll:

Sailor Steve 06-30-10 10:50 PM

Thanks a lot, August! Having him on my Ignore list doesn't help when you broadcast his inanities.

But I'll bite. Here's a stat for you: Last year alone several million privately owned American guns didn't shoot anybody.

tater 06-30-10 10:58 PM

Guns being turned on their owners is a rare thing. They far more often prevent crimes without ever being discharged. This is of course irrelevant to discussions involving the US since to take away guns you'd need to repeal the 2d, period.

BTW, the vast majority of victims of gun violence, AND accidents... convicted felons, or their immediate families.

Gun crime in the US is very narrowly defined demographically. For "european" demographics the rates are similar to those in Europe. The US only appears violent because a small subset of the population is HUGELY more violent. An order of magnitude more, in fact.

OneToughHerring 06-30-10 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve (Post 1432316)
Thanks a lot, August! Having him on my Ignore list doesn't help when you broadcast his inanities.

But I'll bite. Here's a stat for you: Last year alone several million privately owned American guns didn't shoot anybody.

http://www.neahin.org/programs/schoo...statistics.htm

Quote:

Statistics: Gun Violence in Our Communities School Safety
Less than 1% of all homicides among school-aged children (5-19 years of age) occur in or around school grounds or on the way to and from school. (Centers for Disease Control, 1997)

Children and Gun Violence
In a single year, 3,012 children and teens were killed by gunfire in the United States, according to the latest national data released in 2002. That is one child every three hours; eight children every day; and more than 50 children every week. And every year, at least 4 to 5 times as many kids and teens suffer from non-fatal firearm injuries. (Children's Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)

America and Gun Violence
American children are more at risk from firearms than the children of any other industrialized nation. In one year, firearms killed no children in Japan, 19 in Great Britain, 57 in Germany, 109 in France, 153 in Canada, and 5,285 in the United States. (Centers for Disease Control)

Guns in the Wrong Hands
Faulty records enable terrorists, illegal aliens and criminals to purchase guns. Over a two and a half-year period, at least 9,976 convicted felons and other illegal buyers in 46 states obtained guns because of inadequate records. (Broken Records, Americans for Gun Safety Foundation)

School Safety
  • Between 1994 and 1999, there were 220 school associated violent events resulting in 253 deaths - - 74.5% of these involved firearms. Handguns caused almost 60% of these deaths. (Journal of American Medical Association, December 2001)
  • In 1998-99 academic year, 3,523 students were expelled for bringing a firearm to school. This is a decrease from the 5,724 students expelled in 1996-97 for bringing a firearm to school. (U.S. Department of Education, October 2000)
  • Nearly 8% of adolescents in urban junior and senior high schools miss at least one day of school each month because they are afraid to attend. (National Mental Health & Education Center for Children & Families, National Association of School Psychologists 1998)
  • The National School Boards Association estimates that more than 135,000 guns are brought into U.S. schools each day. (NSBA, 1993)
Children and Gun Violence
  • America is losing too many children to gun violence. Between 1979 and 2001, gunfire killed 90,000 children and teens in America. (Children's Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)
  • In one year, more children and teens died from gunfire than from cancer, pneumonia, influenza, asthma, and HIV/AIDS combined. (Children's Defense Fund)
  • The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
America and Gun Violence
  • Every day, more than 80 Americans die from gun violence. (Coalition to Stop Gun Violence)
  • The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
  • American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die from a firearm accident than children in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control)
Guns in the Wrong Hands
  • Americans for Gun Safety produced a 2003 report that reveals that 20 of the nation’s 22 national gun laws are not enforced. According to U.S. Department of Justice data (FY 2000-2002), only 2% of federal gun crimes were actually prosecuted. Eighty-five percent of cases prosecuted relate to street criminals in possession of firearms. Ignored are laws intended to punish illegal gun trafficking, firearm theft, corrupt gun dealers, lying on a criminal background check form, obliterating firearm serial numbers, selling guns to minors and possessing a gun in a school zone. To access The Enforcement Gap: Federal Gun Laws Ignored, visit http://w3.agsfoundation.com/. For a state-by-state chart of gun crimes (FY 2000-2002), click here.
  • Studies show that 1 percent of gun stores sell the weapons traced to 57 percent of gun crimes. According to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), the dealer that armed the DC area sniper is among this small group of problem gun dealers that "supply the suppliers" who funnel guns to the nation's criminals. (Between 1997 and 2001, guns sold by this dealer were involved in 52 crimes, including homicides, kidnappings and assaults. Still open today, it also can't account for 238 guns or say whether they were stolen, lost or sold, or if their buyers underwent felony-background checks.) As a result, these few gun dealers have a vastly disproportionate impact on public safety. The ATF can recognize such dealers based on: (1) guns stolen from inventory; (2) missing federal sales records, needed by police to solve crimes; (3) having 10 weapons a year traced to crimes; (4) frequently selling multiple guns to individual buyers; and (5) short times between gun sales and their involvement in crimes. Yet ATF enforcement is weak due to a lack of Congressional support and resources. For more details, click here.
  • Terrorists have purchased firearms at gun shows, where unlicensed sellers are not currently required to conduct background checks or to ask for identification. According to the Middle East Intelligence Report, for example, a Hezbollah member was arrested in November 2000, after a nine-month investigation by the FBI's counter-terrorism unit. Ali Boumelhem was later convicted on seven counts of weapons charges and conspiracy to ship weapons and ammunition to Lebanon. Federal agents had observed Boumelhem, a resident of Detroit and Beirut, travel to Michigan gun shows and buy gun parts and ammunition for shipment overseas. Boumelhem was prohibited from legally purchasing guns as gun stores because he was a convicted felon. Additional cases involve a Pakistani national with an expired (1988) student visa; a Lebanese native and Hamas member with numerous felony convictions; and a supporter of the Irish Republican Army. (USA Today, Wednesday, November 28, 2001 Americans for Gun Safety)
  • According to Americans for Gun Safety (December 2002), gun theft is most likely in states without laws requiring safe storage of firearms in the home and where there are large numbers of gun owners and relatively high crime rates. Based on FBI data, nearly 1.7 million guns have been reported stolen in the past ten years, and only 40% of those were recovered. The missing guns, over 80% of which are taken from homes or cars, most likely fuel the black market for criminals. NEA, AGS and the National Rifle Association advocate for safe storage. To access "Stolen Guns: Arming the Enemy" visit www.agsfoundation.com.
  • The American Medical Association reports that between 36% and 50% of male eleventh graders believe that they could easily get a gun if they wanted one.
  • In 1998-99 academic year, 3,523 students were expelled for bringing a firearm to school. This is a decrease from the 5,724 students expelled in 1996-97 for bringing a firearm to school. (U.S. Department of Education, October 2000)
  • According to a report by the Joshephson Institute of Ethics (2000 Report Card: Report #1), 60% of high school and 31% of middle school boys said they could get a gun if they wanted to (April, 2001).


GoldenRivet 06-30-10 11:25 PM

here is some stats:

There are over five hundred and fifty million firearms in world wide circulation.

Thats one firearm for every twelve people on the planet.

the only question is...


... how do we arm the other eleven?

:up:

onelifecrisis 07-01-10 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve (Post 1432067)
Owning and shooting a gun in and of itself doesn't hurt anyone.

Neither does shooting nukes at asteroids. Should I be allowed to buy nukes and missiles for that purpose, if I have the money?

Tribesman 07-01-10 02:02 AM

If there are to be no restrictions on owning a firearm doesn't that mean convicts and lunatics must be allowed to buy them.

onelifecrisis 07-01-10 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tribesman (Post 1432385)
If there are to be no restrictions on owning a firearm doesn't that mean convicts and lunatics must be allowed to buy them.

Lunatics are already allowed to buy them in the US. Insane is okay, but they draw the line at criminally insane. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxbRm...eature=related (go to 1:30)


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