I thought we were discussing the relevance to Americans. We have a big country. To some of us the nearest national border is 1500 miles away so international politics are not going to have the same degree of importance to our people.

Wisconsin had it's largest deployment of National Guard since WW2 to Iraq. I'd say their influence on the war was at least as great as Germany's.

Actually you may not know this but our state politicians go on trade junkets to make deals and partnerships with foreign countries fairly often.

I'm not saying they do, but their impact on the average American is a different story.

I see what you mean. But that sounds more like an excuse rather then an explaination to my statement this comparison is not fair. You basicly give your states the same importance as other countries. Now what does this make the Union as a whole? I seriously dislike the undertone of this.

Well i'm not saying this to irritate you, just to look at it from our view three thousand miles away across a very big ocean.

Kay, I'll just take your words the way they are then. But if true, what do you think does this tell about your perception of the world in regards to the discussion at hand?

Me personally or some undefined group of my fellow countrymen and the entire world or just Europe's corner of it?

All of it, if that is no problem.

It tells me that we are big enough and diverse enough to be an international community on our own.

I see where you are coming from. Technically speaking, though, one nation can't be an international community itself, that would be a contradiction in itself.

It still does not answer the question though, how do you judge the lack of political and international education and how to solve this problem. Because going on like this clearly defies any common sense, don't you agree? Or are you advocating the lack of knowledge and thus a basis for good judgement by the people when it comes to international affairs?

I am still not sure if you are just explaining or justifying the situation.

Btw, when I talk about education, I am not talking about school or university. I talk about self education, reading newspapers, magazines, even international and foreign ones to get a better picture of the world. Everybody with a computer is able to do that nowadays.

On the face of it yes but when you think about it given our size and ethnic diversity we really are very much like an international community. Same thing with Russia and especially the old Soviet Union. So while technically you are correct the practical application is the opposite.

The reason i asked whether you were talking about me specifically or some group of my countrymen is because there is no one single answer here. We are way too big for that. There are those who know as much as i do about international affairs, those that know a lot more and those who know a lot less.

This is nothing to be ashamed of. After all I can get into my car and drive almost 5000 kilometers and still be in my country. If you do the same how many countries will you pass through? The average person just doesn't have the same basic need to interact with foreign countries that you do.

There we have to disagree. While yes, the Soviet Union was compromised of many different ethnic and cultural groups, it was always seen as one country. Nobody ever referred to the Ukraine, White Russia, Georgia or any of the other countless entities the USSR was made of. It was seen as one political entity, same with the US nowadays.

Reading this, I think we are not taking about the same subject. As soon as a nation is involved in international politics, the need for education and information is there. That is an absolute given for any basic ability for judgement by the ppl of that nation and the very same for any nation, no matter how large or small.
What you refer to is a lack of opportunity for common folks due to the geographic environment, which is undoubtly true especially for the US and their lack of neighbours. Nevertheless there are countless possibilities to gain knowledge even without leaving the country.

Yeah, I think that's a basic American trait, we don't feel any shame in not knowing where Latvia or Turkmenia are or who the PM of Germany is. We have plenty of business here to take care of, we're pretty much self-contained.

:doh: Oh Neal...

(did I hear somebody saying "Yes, Major Carter?")

Being the

- (by far) greatest consumer of global resources (roughly 25% of global resources for just 5% of the global population makes for an impressive per-head-calculation second to none in the world),

- and running in over 160 countries around 900 military bases, installations and passive real estates eventually currently not being actively used by the military (short of one third of these in Germany alone),

- and enforcing the independence and recognition of nations like kosovo just so that a military base like Bondsteel with 400 km2 can be maintained and/or established unaffected by not-too-sympathetic nations like Serbia for example,

hardly qualifies for a description of being "self-contained", Neal. ;) Maybe you like to be left alone inside the US and just live your lives (what by the level of desinterest for the "rest" of the world certainly can be judged to be true), but that for acchieveing this the politcal acting of your nation probably is the most penetrative and expansive of all nations there are - you nevertheless accept (and do not like to be remineded of).

Being self-contained is something different. and independence and autarky is a necessary precodntions for that ö- else you cannot afford to be "self-contained".

The govt handles our external stuff, I'm referring to the majority of the people in the US.

Adding my $0.02 to what Neal said,

There's three distinctly different entities in the US.

American Business
American Government
American People

Try to remember that when America has a negative affect on your country, it's not coming from the bottom group. American people don't want to cause problems or hurt anyone. We have very little control over the other two groups who do the damage.

I did not know that the government and the external stuff has so little to do with the people in the US. :)

Now you do.

Ah, so you are excused and should be allowed to just carry on like that?

It is your government that you elect, and it is your business men from your people that influences your countries policies. Usually you americans are the first to point out that the government is for and of the people and that you are all one (as often being said in thios forum). but it seems there are occasions when this statement opportunistically is denied.

One problem remains - i don't believe a single word of it. ;)

Hmm, wonder what we use some of those resources for? Ah, you answered it already.

My memory seems to be failing me at the moment. Can you please remind me why we had so many bases in Germany in the first place?

Do one thing for me. Tell me what Europe would look like today if America never had a base there, anywhere in Europe, ever. (Here's a hint, look east. If you see Palin's front porch, you went to far, back up a little)

Actually that kind of illustrates my point Bewolf. Yes, to outsiders including Americans, the USSR was indeed seen as a single entity. However as soon as it collapsed many of the various republics and ethnic groups, long considered to be one, couldn't break away from each other fast enough, so how accurate was that single entity concept?

There is plenty of education/information available on other cultures and nationalities here in the states as well. Our libraries and access to information are as extensive as anyone's. We just tend to look at things differently than Europeans do because of our differences in size and our history.

For example, a Texan is just as far away from me physically as a Finn is to an Italian but there are far less differences between us. Perhaps that tends to make us less aware of the boundaries that put the "international" in "international politics".

On the other hand the ability of any single political group to exert control over a country like mine is far greater than in your comparatively homogeneous societies. The effort required for a group like say the nazis or the communists to subjugate my country would be comparable to them having to come to power in all of Europe all at once. I'm not saying it couldn't happen here of course, anything is theoretically possible, but it would be far, far more difficult to achieve.

So when you talk about the importance of understanding international politics, what it is about them that is important may be different from your vantage point than it is to mine.

After all if we thought as Europeans do we'd be 50 individual nations all speaking different languages traditions and cultures (and probably constantly at war with each other). On the other hand if you Europeans thought as we Americans do your people would tend to be much less aware of international politics than might be prudent for your continued national survival.