I am perfectly aware that the United States, and the United Kingdom, are no more true democracies than the USSR was a true communist state.

Ok, maybe this particular part of the discussion is already dealt and buried but I thought I'd add my 5 cents to this Finland-German ally thingy...

Truth is that Finland was merely a pawn in the big game between Germany and Russia. Germany needed Finland to secure their occupation in Norway and have a steady ground for their campaign advancing to Russia. And Russians thought Finland would've made a nice little stronghold on the front. By occupying Finland they would've have full control over Baltic Sea among other things. Finns in the middle had to choose the lesser of two evils since the russian option would've meant kissing goodbye to independence. The german option brought Finland the arms and supplies they badly needed not to mention the manpower. Finland never shared the views and agendas of the Third Reich nor did they ever fight for Third Reich's cause.

Personally I prefer the german option over the russian and (despite not being very patriotic) I salute the Germans along the Finnish soldiers who fought here. Dead or alive. Third Reich or not.

It's a Republic.

I have already agreed with this point. The Finns were in a very bad situation and managed to pull through. They didi what they had to do to preserve their nation.:up:

I was born and raised in Brooklyn. Lived there till joining the Navy. I lived in the "South" now for almost 30yrs and am therefore qualified to make this comment: I am glad I was not around to watch the Liberals take over my hometown.

I must say Dep, I won't bother to even try to have a descent discussion with people like you. I know it's worthless anyway.
USA is and has been for over 200 years a major superpower. You never faced a situation like Finland, fighting ALONE against an enemy with far superior amount of weapons and weapon modernity.

Quote:

Finnish Side: 250,000 men 30 tanks 130 aircraft Soviet Side: 1,000,000 men 3,000 tanks 3,800 aircraft

Salute, all brave Finnish soldiers who fought against such an overwhelming enemy. You are not forgotten! Hakkaa Päälle!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ski_troops.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Winter_war.jpg

http://winterwar.com/images/finvssu.jpg

No, it wouldn't have been OK, but only a fool would think Germany wouldn't have done it.

Actually we've only been a super power since the end of WW2 and we have faced such an enemy both in our revolutionary war against the British and again at the start of WW2 against the Germans and Japanese.

But that shouldn't detract from the outstanding job you Finns did against the Bolsheviks.

Oops, sorry.:p

Don't know my history too well I think...;)

The finns did fight good. Even a Commie like me honros your troops, they did fight incredible. Not even Rambo would have had a chance against these People. ;)

And i like the "Northern Countrys" as we ppl in Austria call it. Sweden did have a nice idea, a mix of everything, Communism Socialism Capitalism ecetera, so living was nice there. And is still today in all of that countrys "Up there".

If i did say anything offending sorry, but i don't know your Finn stuff to well...;)

Quote:"Soviet losses on the front were tremendous, and the country's international standing suffered. Even worse, the fighting ability of the Red Army was put into question, a fact that some argue contributed to Hitler's decision to launch Operation Barbarossa. Finally, the Soviet forces did not accomplish their primary objective of conquest of Finland, but gained only a secession of territory along Lake Ladoga. The Finns retained their sovereignity and gained considerable international goodwill."

Where you have finded that, in Reader Digest?



We go to the point after all this years, utilising for that neutral informations , no comunist propaganda, no Finnish or other propaganda.

First point , Molotov had make a petition the 31th October to corriged the frontier of some kilometers and that´s, sorry, but had a certain logic. Leningrad, today San Petesburg , was the second city of the URSS and is a 32 km of the Finnish border. Translading that to another scenery ,can you imagine the Citizens of Miami leaving at 32 km of Cuba? Wich can be the reaction of the USA people?
URSS was attacked from 1917 by White Russian, merceneries armed by the German,British, Poland ,USA, latter Japanese and then the Germans and was always under menace.Many of this expeditions anti-bolchevik had departed from Finnish territory.The safety of the Country was primordial ,specially for a so big city like Leningrad with so many industries, harbour,militar instalations, etc.
The petition of Stalin were clear the 12-10-39 :

1-The rent of the Base of Hanko
2-Cession of all external islands in the Gulf of Finland including Surursari
3-Frontier pushed of 65 km to make this one far of Leningrad
4-A portion of territory of the peninsule of Rybacij

In exchange Stalin gived to Finnland the Soviet Carelia( most of the double of the territory demanded by the Soviets, the aceptation of fortifications by Finland of the Islands AAland and the reatification of the pact of no agression of 1932.

In any moment the Soviet had intention of conquer Finland , not in 1939 and not in 1944 and the history is very clear about that!!!
There a good amount of books to read about that.And neutrals and objetives;No commies, or Imperialist Gringos, or Nazis,etc.

The Soviet propositions were rejected the the 12-10-39 ,Mannerheim had try to arrive a compromiss informing the Goverment that the Finnish Army can resist maybe two weeks maximum in a eventuell war , but he was only suported by Paasikivi.
The 03-11-39 the Finnish delegation was informed about the intentions of Stalin to purchase the base of Hanko, but that was also rejected by the Finnish.
The 13-11-39 the delegation of the Finnish Goverment and the Soviets had another encounter in Moscow , but the Finnish delegation had before received orders of cut all new speeches.
The 15th November and after all tentatives to arrive a pacific solution were discarted, the Soviet Army received the order to prepare to war.
The 26-11-39 a Mainila several Soviet soldiers were killed under artillery fire.The Soviet accusing of that the Finnish, but this ones replies the artillery fire was not done by his troops; and that´s true, the fire had come from the Soviet side of the border.The 27-11-39 Finland proposse the bilateral retiring of the troops; the 28-11-39 the Soviet Union dennonced the Pact of no Agression, the 29-11-39 broke the diplomatic relations with Finland no accepting the Finnish proposition of bilateral retiring of troops and the 30th November 1939 start the Invasion of Finland.
The tentatives of the Allieds(France and England) to entry in war together with Finnland were postponed ,Sweden had not accepted the transit of this troops in his territory and by the 17-02-40 the situation start to change drastically for the Finnish Army after lossing the line Mannerheim.The 23-02-40 were maked the first contact for a possible armistice via the Swedish Goverment; conditions by the Soviets are like the same :The rent of Hanko for 30 years, the Itsme of Carelia and the zone of the Ladoga lake ,exaclty the border of Peter The Great in 1721.
The 26th February the Sweden inform the allied if his territory was violated by the British and French troops , he must entry in war againts Finland,France England and involuntary allied with the Soviets.
The 5th March France and England sugest Finnland to make a "official Invitation" to intervene in the war againt the Soviet, and maybe also againt the Sweden.This propossion was postponed the same day to the 12th march.
But was too late .The 6th March the Finnish delegation under the lead of the 1th minister Ryti fly to Moscow to prepare the signature of the armistice.The Soviet propossition were again not accepted initially, but by the 9th March the militar situation was too catastrofic for the Finnish Army and the signature to save something was necessary.
The 11th March France and England make public his declaration with the offer of intervention.But the same day Sweden and also Norway declaring his opossition and the negative to allow the transit of troops in his territories.

And the same day the Finnish delegation signed the armistice and the war ended the 13 March 1940.
The war was very costly for the Soviets ,48.745 deaths and 158.000 wounded ,many by congellation.He had also show the serious carences and deficiences of the Red Army ,specially in officers, heavy handicaped after the purgues of 1937.
Finnish losses were 25.000 deaths and 45.000 wounded.

After the war Finland had loss a 10% of his territory ,his second most important city ,Viipuri and a important industrial center at Vuoski.The historical border of Peter the Great were stablished for the Soviets ,Hanko was now in rent for 30 years and the half of the Peninsule of Rybacij was now in Soviet hands. Petsamo was returned to Finland.

Quite different with the Reader Digest Version ,ehhh;) ?But I assure you, that´s exaclty true ,and nothing of propaganda here...

I take more offense in the fact that he can't spell to save his life.

I think you should go to school more. Learn german, and figure out something about how international politics works. A tac nuke in Vietnam would have set a very dangerous precedent. Why, the russkies could have said, the so called american freedom lovers used nuclear weapons to subjugate the free will of people of Vietnam. I see no reason why we should restrain ourselves. Come on, comrades. Let us nuke Afghanistan and teach those dogs what freedom is.

And over in India, they would figure out that this nasty Kashmir business could end real fast like. And at this point, Damascus, Cairo and Teheran would be a smoldering rubblescape courtesy their common foe, who thought why not end this once and for all.

I mean, if the US finds tacnukes are a good means of coercion, why shouldn't we? For more than a thousand of years there has been this ancient tradition of war. You need a cause and a justification. It is still so. The A bombs were butchery, a dirty way to end the war. A one time trump card. And then we can't use it again because we see how devastating it is, short term and long term.

New Zealand Side
9000 men
Zero tanks
Zero Aircraft
3 frigates
:roll::nope:

Usually if a ppl are fighting in their own country they are hard to beat. The Fins stop Russia, Russia stopped the Germans, Vietcong made the US go home, Iraq will probably do the same - meaning USA, its a waste of time us fighting here lets go home!

IMHO, even if the US did not drop the bomb on Japan and instead attacked them with troops it would of been one very long bloody battle.

When you defend your own country its a good enough reason to die for it.