:oops: I realized that after I posted. What I should have asked is what would make you revolt ala Kiev.

BTW the poll is missing the option:

"Yes sometimes I do, because rights not exercised are soon lost."

That's be my choice. :salute:

As carrying guns and other weapons, concealed or openly, is against the law in Germany (with expections for people with hunting license), the question simply doesn't show up for me. Especially as I know a few people who are allowed to use small caliber guns in the "Schützenverein" (you know, these guys with the fancy hats, drinking too much and playing awful music, the English term "gun club" doesn't fit here^^), which are mostly heavy drinkers and tend to use the things on themself sooner or later...or go amok, what happened 3 times the last 3 years and it were always guys from the Schützenverein (which added to their already bad reputation).

As in Germany even the police doesn't have to use their guns that often (around 100 times the last year, I think...and I mean the hole german police force of the hole country^^) it simply isn't worth the risk...and you simply don't need it.

There are American's who would disagree with that assessment, otherwise there wouldn't be much of a domestic debate on the subject at all. :O:


Here I would like to state something that I've learned years ago. We are all products of our environment. Every one of us. How we are, how we think, how we perceive things, is molded into shape by our daily lives. On that note, I think as environments change, so do people, but I wonder if the overall "molding" is cumulative. Anyway.. just a tangent there.



If you want a weapon for defense (IE: to save life and limb), I would argue you'd want the weapon that would greatest maximize your chances of success and survival, would you not?

Probably no more then any other weapon. In a situation where you find yourself stumbling around in the dark (which i think stupid) with a knife, or club, is no different then a gun. Regardless of choice of weapon, you can't see who's in front of you. Mistakes can be made.

Not necessarily true. It depends on what you choose to load the gun with. Options include your standard "Ball" ammunition. Hollow points, which do as you describe, or Less than lethal ammunition. See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhQCMQ4K3PY


Ok this is just my opinion, and i'm being very general here...
The thing about guns to an American, is that they are not just guns. Yes they are weapons, but they are a lot more then that. I could if i spent the time, write an essay on this, but being very brief (and i'll probably overlook something as a result), guns are symbolic of history, tradition, individualism, independence, self reliance, citizenship, and that most often overused word, freedom. All things greatly valued in our culture.

Amazingly Maw Zedong may have said it best, "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." The American people keeping and bearing arms is highly symbolic that ultimately the political power in this country rests within "We the people". (Or at least it should :shifty: ) Our country never had a Monarchy of any sort, and was established as a Constitutional Republic with Democratic tendencies. I think you may agree that symbolism can be a powerful thing, so to ask an American to give up their guns, is in fact, asking A LOT.

When Charlton Heston (infamously in progressive circles) held up a reproduction musket and said, "from my cold dead hands", it' wasn't just a gun he holding up in the air, but an object that symbolizes many things valued.
http://woodgatesview.files.wordpress...ead-hands1.jpg

I can agree with that and that is possibly something worth fighting for.
I just hate when the gun issue - the right of every citizen to carry a gun is shown in some practical ways like crime prevention and so on.
Having every one armed simply raises the bar of violence.
Now it is sort of debate about what came first...chicken or the egg.

I couldn't tell you to be perfectly serious and honest. No one could have predicted that the police shooting of Mark Duggan would spark off the 2011 riots. We've had our fair share of civil uprisings in the past, and even fairly recently, but nothing in the scope of what's taking place in Kiev for...well...centuries. The closest you could get to it, probably, would be the Easter Rising in Ireland in 1916, but on the mainland, probably not since the Jacobites in the 1700s.
The last real big bust up before the 2011 riots was probably the Poll Tax Riots, if I'm honest the era of Maggie Thatcher is a good place to look if you want to see British unrest on full display.

Poll Tax Riots - 1990 - Economic/Social unrest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF5-enWLYGU

Brixton and Toxteth Riots - 1981 Social/Race unrest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCjZEZt3QKc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EoHbjqCw94

Miners Strike - Orgreave Picket 'Battle for Orgreave' - 1984 Social unrest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsRmDLD089M

Jimbuna will probably get some memories from that footage, I know he was at Toxteth, and no doubt was roped in to deal with the miners.

More recently we had a fairly big scuffle over Tuition fees:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI5VY81IdG8

Which probably helped lead into the 2011 riots, it was all in the same year IIRC.

But a full on revolution and overthrow of the government would require something of a magnitude greater than what we've seen already, it would need the government to make a catastrophic screw up and the media to report on it fairly widely (which shouldn't take much, the rolling news loves a good riot) and for enough people to actually be affected by it in a big way. Or, it might take nothing at all...I honestly couldn't say, these things tend to come out of the field and catch us off guard.

True that, still the history of America is inextricably linked with the gun, Colt, Smith and Wessen, Winchester, household names. Take the gun out of America...it just wouldn't seem right.


Not going to disagree at all. Spot on in my opinion.
This is true, and ultimately the problem lies with the fleshy bit that's holding the gun. If someone is going to kill someone else, they'd better be damned sure that their life is in danger...and how do you make damn sure?
This, admittedly, is a problem as old as weaponry itself, an old English poem from around the English Civil War has the phrase:

True. I'd wager that the ease of use to damage inflicted ratio is a bit askew with weapons other than knives or guns.

Good point. :hmmm: I guess it also depends on where you get hit. Same with a knife.


Yup, and someone who isn't an American will really struggle to understand this. I struggle, but I respect that, however I think that as time goes on, there is going to have to be a long hard look at how firearms interact with American society and vice versa, because society in itself has changed dramatically since the Second Amendment was drawn up. Does this mean that guns need to go? Not at all, but there is two great immobile forces locking horns here and eventually something is going to give.

Mao may have been ruthlessly genocidal, but he was a shrewd person, he knew how power worked, how to get it, keep it, and exploit it.
The problem I think that America will find in the 21st century is that whilst the American people have political power in their guns, the government that they keep those guns to defend from has much bigger guns and much more power if it chooses to use it. Of course, if the entire populace rose up, then that would be something different, but we all know that nothing is ever unanimous.

YOU BLEW IT UP! No...wait...

I know that you are non-partisan Ducimus, and I respect you for that, but I still wonder how vocal the current crowds who fear the loss of their freedoms will be under a differently aligned President. Still, time will tell. :03:

That is your opinion and not fact. Take your gun hating views somewhere else.

Why? Is the First Amendment outlawed in favour of the Second?

Not at all. If you want to present facts instead of lies and opinions then I'd be happy to have a conversation with you otherwise go spew your hatred somewhere else.

For those of you gun haters how many of you served your country? My experience has been 99% of you haven't. I gave my country 6 years of my life. I'm almost convinced that if you had served your country you'd have a totally different view on guns

"For those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know"



USMC 8 yrs active, 4 yrs reserve, 5 yrs as a sheriff's deputy.


I carry a weapon because I can, because I'm a law abiding citizen, and because I've been extensively trained. I've carried a weapon for literally half my life. It's a tool.


The ability to defend yourself is a right. If you chose not to exercise that right, so be it. If overnight all firearms disappeared, however, that isn't going to make you safe. If you run into Brock Lesnar in a dark alley, he's just going to squeeze your neck until your head pops off. That's what firearms are for. Sam Colt's equalizer. I can only hope that you never have to defend yourself or your family.



That being said, if your carrying a weapon and you haven't received any training, (and I'm not talking about the 50 rounds you have to fire to qualify for a CCW at 15 feet max), you're doing yourself and everyone around you a great disservice.


This wasn't aimed at anyone in particular but rather everyone.


/end rant

I don't see how being a soldier for your chosen nation state change anything, this is a civilized society of people trying live their lives, not a warzone where the enemy is around every corner.

For me, I don't want a society where problems are solved with a gun, I want the underlying reasons behind criminal behavior to be found and treated. A person does not commit violent acts for no reason and we should find the cultural, social, and psychological reasons behind the acts and eliminate them. A normal person doesn't commit acts of violence, just as someone who doesn't want for anything won't commit theft.

We need education, welfare, and healthcare, not guns and death. I don't care if that means paying a little bit extra taxes, its better then people dying.

Cool heads everyone.

Who said the problems have to be solved with a gun? You are talking like an anti-gun person with those kind of comments. You choose not to have any part in guns, that is your right. Don't try and violate mine.

I carry because it's my right, if you choose not to exercise your rights then that is your choice. Don't go crying when you find yourself in a situation that has the possibility of a different outcome if you had simply chosen to exercise your rights.

I would like the underlying reasons behind criminal behavior to be found also. Things are never going to get better until we get the money of politics, put term limits on all public servants, and most importantly fix the unequal distribution of wealth in the USA. More and better education is also needed in this country as it's going down the crapper faster and faster every year.

Don't see how being a solder has anything to do with it? That tells me you never have served your country. Are you scared?

I seek out people that are anti-gun. Why? To see why they are so anti-gun. The vast majority of them either recite Fox talking points and/or are scared of them because they've never held/used one. It's these that have never held/used one that I really want to connect with. I ask them to join me at the gun range so that they can see they are not a scary thing if handled correctly. A few decline because it's been so ingrained in their upbringing that guns are bad by their parents (shame on the parents!). Those that I do get to join me at the gun range end up having a great time. A few have even gone on to buy guns of their own. They then get their friends to join them at the gun range and it gets contagious. This is exactly what the anti-gun people hate and I love giving them the finger :smug: