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-   -   SCOTUS upholds Affordable Care Act (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=196477)

August 06-29-12 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk (Post 1903014)
By definition but I believe privately owned and staffed by contracted on doctors/nurses. My father(ER physician) was part of a group contracted on to run the ER. Hospitals are a business certainly.

The point I was (probably badly) trying to make is that military folks are a lot more likely to deal with some peeling paint and leaky ceilings with a lot less complaints than civilians ever would.

But whatever the state of the facilities it would still be better than being made homeless to pay for treatment, let alone an operation out of pocket.

AVGWarhawk 06-29-12 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August (Post 1903018)
The point I was (probably badly) trying to make is that military folks are a lot more likely to deal with some peeling paint and leaky ceilings with a lot less complaints than civilians ever would.

But whatever the state of the facilities it would still be better than being made homeless to pay for treatment, let alone an operation out of pocket.

Yes, you are probably correct on the military folks. The civilians on the other hand would not only complain but sue.

Stealhead 06-29-12 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk (Post 1903019)
Yes, you are probably correct on the military folks. The civilians on the other hand would not only complain but sue.

That seems to be the mentality suing. I always want to laugh when I hear someone say how they would rather die than go to X hospital I am fairly sure in the Us your likelihood to die form some sort of negligence while in a hospital is about the same.

Of course I my be completely incorrect here but does't the fact that everybody wants to sue these days one of the things that drove up the cost of insurance and medical care in the first place? Some years back in Florida they passed a law Good Samaritan law which more or less requires that if you see an accident on the road you are supposed to at least call for help.Well some one ended up getting sued because they pulled a guy from burning car saving his live but it did further injure the person so the jerk suied the guy that saved his life because he caused a back injury while pulling the guy to safety "Thanks for saving my life buddy now I will sue you because you hurt my back saving me" anyway the case got thrown out of court because the person had no recourse it was save the guy and perhaps injure him or let him die. After that they changed the law so that you could not sue someone for helping you.

To be honest if I had some way of knowing that the person I might try to save or help would try and sue for it I would not help them.

AVGWarhawk 06-29-12 01:29 PM

You are correct Steelhead. Tort reform is something that is in dire need of fixing. The "sue" factor has driven up malpractice/negligence insurance.

yubba 06-29-12 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk (Post 1903097)
You are correct Steelhead. Tort reform is something that is in dire need of fixing. The "sue" factor has driven up malpractice/negligence insurance.

Bingo give that man a cookie, the malpractice insurance has drove health care through the roof, a fix is to put a cap on these law suits, and then go after the fraud, I know I have bad mouthed the VA but do you want the government ration-ing health care when they can't run a cementary. silly me left out an h

August 06-29-12 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead (Post 1903057)
I am fairly sure in the Us your likelihood to die form some sort of negligence while in a hospital is about the same.

Hmm, I don't think I can agree with that. One local hospital around here operated on the wrong spot of a patient 5 times in just a couple year period. I've personally witnessed a vast difference between the patient care at that particular hospital and say the one that performed my heart surgery which is only a couple miles away, so there are definitely some differences in the quality of care depending on where you go.

I'm certainly no fan of big government but I also think that there are some things that shouldn't be all about money. A persons health is one of them.

mookiemookie 06-29-12 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk (Post 1903097)
You are correct Steelhead. Tort reform is something that is in dire need of fixing. The "sue" factor has driven up malpractice/negligence insurance.

Why has tort reform not brought down the cost of insurance in Texas? It's been done here and had none of the wonderful effects that people say that tort reform is supposed to have.

yubba 06-29-12 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August (Post 1903139)
Hmm, I don't think I can agree with that. One local hospital around here operated on the wrong spot of a patient 5 times in just a couple year period. I've personally witnessed a vast difference between the patient care at that particular hospital and say the one that performed my heart surgery which is only a couple miles away, so there are definitely some differences in the quality of care depending on where you go.

I'm certainly no fan of big government but I also think that there are some things that shouldn't be all about money. A persons health is one of them.

Well the government is running Social Security and Medicare and what is happening to these two government run enities, I know you can say it,,,.... they are going broke that's what is going on with these two government run enities, so how is Obama care going to be different ?????

Onkel Neal 06-29-12 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird (Post 1902660)
I see it promises to become a happy-debate-day in America again today! :O: The question is: will Neal take the opportunity and ask Germany for political asylum, or will he face the challenge and dares to return? :D

Germany rejected my appeal for asylum, so did France. I guess I'm going home :(

Garion 06-29-12 07:14 PM

Come to Scotland Neal, yer more than welcome :woot:

Cheers

Gary

Dowly 06-29-12 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens (Post 1903180)
Germany rejected my appeal for asylum, so did France. I guess I'm going home :(

Come to Eastern Finland, PM me for precise address. Bring beer, only 3 left!
S.O.S!

EDIT: Oh and don't believe Garion.. because.. uh.. LOOK! DANCING KITTEN!!

EDIT2: Ok, it's just a kitten being a kitten, but.. I GOT BEER! (that you hopefully brought me)

yubba 06-29-12 09:11 PM

I had a beer it must have been that light aircraft stuff cause I'd p-38 too much IL-2 help me.

CaptainHaplo 06-30-12 12:27 AM

Its astounding how so many people - pretty much everyone from the casual observer to the legal and political analysts have so totally missed what has occured here.

Now everyone who has read my posts for long know I am on the "right" politically. I will say this - Judge Roberts has lost an awful lot of my respect - but not for the same reason everyone else would think.

I have lost respect for him because he is attempting to manipulate the course of the country in ways that go beyond the role he has as a Justice - much less the Chief Justice - should do. This decision was political on so many levels - and was absolutely inspired and genius. But inspired genius does not mean it was proper. It also is a huge gamble.

Politically - this did what everyone thinks on the presidential race - it gives a HUGE boost to the right. The comment in the decision that basically says "American people, you elected these morons that passed this- so deal with it yourself". It has energized the right like nothing else likely could have done. But the goal is long term - which will tie into the legal one which I will make clear in a moment.

Legally - it takes a great risk by defining something that isn't a tax as one. Notice the one point that the Court did not rule on - it ruled that the penalty is a tax - but it did NOT rule that the tax is proper and legal in and of itself. This is the reason that Roberts made this decision - the Court cannot by law rule on the legality of a tax until it has been collected - which will be 2014. This is due to the Anti-Injunction Act.

That's right - if its not repealed, it can again be challenged. This time as an unlawful tax - as a tax that is imposed for a lack of commerce. See the Commerce Clause refutation in the current Opinion. There is a reason Roberts wrote the Opinion the way he did. Not one legal analyst on all the TV shows has noticed this opening. They are too busy celebrating or wringing their hands depending on their personal politics. I have spoken to a 4 attorneys and 3 law "scholars" (aka instructors at a law university) and every one of them agreed that the opening exists to challenge this tax as unlawful and that the Court could not rule on that issue until the tax has been collected.

Now - consider the impact - both long and short term - of this decision. The decision has removed any left wing claim that the court is merely a political entity - thus insuring that there will be no immediate claims of partisanship should the Court strike down the tax as unlawful in the future. The decision has significantly enhanced the republican candidate for president chances for winning by mobilizing not only the base, but many moderate and independents. Finally, one must consider the current makeup of the court. 4 Members are over 70.

At 79, the staunch liberal Ginsburg is the most likely to retire (or pass) due to age. Scalia, the "rabid" conservative is 76, but is in excellent health and is considered too driven to consider retirement soon. Kennedy and Breyer, 75 and 73 respectively, may also consider leaving the court, though it is more likley that they would be driven to it by health concerns rather than mere age. Given that they are consider either swing or left votes, the balance would be very different after such a change.

One departure would drastically modify the makeup of the court, especially considering that it is likely to be Ginsburg who leaves. It is unlikely that she will stay until she is 81 or later (remember that 2014 date - 2 years from now). The replacement will be chosen by the next president - and as such Roberts has gambled that his action will mean a more conservative justice will replace Ginsburg in the future due to a Romney win. Given that it would be be in the 2015 time frame before a case challenging the tax would make it to the Supreme Court, a Romney win will likely mean a less liberal court - and a likely 6-3 ruling that could overturn the legality of the tax itself. This would then enable the Court to write a very strong Opinion that could further limit Congress by defining what it can and can not tax - something that has not been addressed by the Court in some time.

It is however, a grave risk. If Obama wins, the tax case will be a 5-4 decision that has done nothing but create a greater mess than what we would have faced if the law was repealed this time around. At that point, removing the funding mechanism does not insure the rest of it dies.

What is more, it is an attempt to manipulate the Republic in a way that is more than just beneath the dignity of the Court.

To credit Roberts, he thought this through. He protected the reputation of the court, limited the use of the Commerce Clause, and left open the door to not only overturn the "tax" at a later time, but insured the opportunity for the Court to limit Congressional power to tax in the future. He could not have done all of this had he gone the other direction - yet in doing this he has risked much. If Obamacare is legislatively repealed, the Court has no ability to deal with the question of the tax until some other over-reach of Congress occurs. There is no telling how long that might take or what the makeup of the Court will be.

What the future holds, no one knows. But rest assured this fight is not over by a long shot.

mookiemookie 06-30-12 09:36 AM

My thought is that most Americans are sick of this debate. The law's gonna take effect. People are gonna realize that it isn't the end of days. They'll get some health issues taken care of that they couldn't have done before. By the end of 2014 it won't even be an issue anymore, except to the most extremist and screechy right wingers. But the rest of America will have moved on.

vienna 06-30-12 12:25 PM

Quote:

Germany rejected my appeal for asylum, so did France. I guess I'm going home :(
Ecuador, Neal, Ecuador! It's all the rage now for political asylum seekers...

...


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