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Skybird 02-19-09 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus
There is, after all a big difference between saying you are a Christian/Muslim and actually being a Christian/Muslim. :D

Strange - when I say that, I immediately come under fire. :DL

Concerning comparing bible and quran, the bible has two parts: first the part on the old revenging desert God who demands totalitarian control over man and man's ultimate submission and obedience. This was the status quo of belief two thousand years ago. Much of Judaism got stuck in that description as well. But with Jesus, a reformist appeared on the scene, and thus a second part to the bible emerged, which replaced the ancient desert god dogma with that what Jesus told and taught, and that is a much more loving and forgiving deity, which additionally was meant as a metaphor I'm sure. This is were you cannot compare Quran and bible anymore, because the Quran in the first three centuries has seen many local versions and manipulated editions that local rulers tailored to their needs to justif by it their means of performing their power and pushing their interests - true, but nevertheless Muhammad described a god of submission and conquest, terror and tyranny incase of disobedience, like the old desert god of the Jews and the old testament. And he did so because he very much copied the dogmas of the Jews about whom he lectured himself and thought one day he knew enough, but then was put down in theological debate with the pharisees who showed him how inferior his insight into Judaism was (this event is where islam's deep disgust and hate for Jews is deriving from, it led Muhammad's narcissistic ego to wage war and to commit genocide as well, to revenge his intellectual inferiority). The old testament with its tyrannic deity was followed by Jesus and the glad tidings of the new testament. But after Muhammad - followed nobody, the quran compoares to the old testament, but there is no new testament in it.

That's why I say that Islam got stuck with its head in the azz of history, 1400 years deep.

Happy Times 02-19-09 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus
Another interpretation on whether Honour Killings are a part of Islam. These two sources say no.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503543392

In response to the question:

Quote:

Respected scholars, As-Salamu `Alaykum wa Rahmatu Allah wa Barakatuh. What does Islam say about honor killings? Does Islam really have a concept of honor killings, most of the victims here are females; so does Islam really order to kill females in the name of honor?
Quote:

Wa`alykum As-Salaamu Warahmatullahi Wabarakaatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear sister in Islam, we do really appreciate your question, which shows how far you are interested in getting yourself well-acquainted with the sound teachings of Islam. May Allah bless your efforts in pursuit of knowledge and may He keep us all firm in the straight path!

Sister, it’s a well-known fact that Islam maintains the protection of life and does not sanction any violation against it. In the Glorious Qur’an, Allah, Most High, says, “Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom.” (An-Nisa’: 93)

`Abdullah ibn Mas`ud, may Allah be pleased with him, reported that the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, "The blood of a Muslim may not be legally spilt other than in one of three [instances]: the married person who commits adultery; a life for a life; and one who forsakes his religion and abandons the community." (Reported by Al-Bukhari and Muslim)

Focusing more on your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and an Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:

“There is no such concept in Islam that is called “honor killing”. Islam holds every soul in high esteem and does not allow any transgression upon it. It does not allow people to take the law in their own hands and administer justice, because doing so will be leading to chaos and lawlessness. Therefore, based on this, Islam does not permit such killings.

First of all, in order to sanction killing, it must be through a binding verdict issued by an authoritative law court. Individuals themselves have no authority either to judge cases or pass judgments. Therefore, a Muslim should not sanction such killing because doing so will be leading to the rule of the law of the jungle. A civilized society cannot be run by such laws.”

Shedding more light on it, Sheikh `Atiyyah Saqr, former head of Al-Azhar Fatwa Committee, states:

“Like all other religions, Islam strictly prohibits murder and killing without legal justification. Allah, Most High, says, “Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom.” (An-Nisa’: 93)

The so-called “honor killing” is based on ignorance and disregard of morals and laws, which cannot be abolished except by disciplinary punishments.

It goes without saying that people are not entitled to take the law in their own hands, for it’s the responsibility of the Muslim State and its concerned bodies to maintain peace, security, etc., and to prevent chaos and disorder from creeping into the Muslim society.”

Moreover, the eminent Muslim scholar, Sheikh Muhammad Al-Hanooti, member of the North American Fiqh Council, adds:

“In Islam, there is no place for unjustifiable killing. Even in case of capital punishment, only the government can apply the law through the judicial procedures. No one has the authority to execute the law other than the officers who are in charge.

Honor killing could be a wrong cultural tradition. It is unjust and inhumane action. The murderer of that type deserves punishment.”

Sister, if you are still in need of more information, don't hesitate to contact us. Do keep in touch. May Allah guide us all to the straight path!

I hope you understand you are quoting a cholar from partly public funded school so he has a motivation to even lie. The Sheikh is a Wahhabist but in Canada he is considered "moderate muslim scholar working against fundamentalism".:har:
He has strong Saudi connections, to me he is a facist.

The same Sheikh Kutty was quoted in the essay i posted.
Quote:

Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:
“Adultery in Islam is one of the most heinous and deadliest of sins. Its enormity can be gauged from the fact that it has often been conjoined in the Qur’an with the gravest of all sins: shirk or associating partners with Allah.”
As the original post was about a divorce situation that ended in a beheading, lets see what Sheikh Ahmad Kutty has to say about divorce from womens and mens perpective.

Women

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Respected Sheikh, As-Salamu `alaykum. Does the woman have the right to ask for the divorce?
Quote:

Dear sister in Islam, we would like to thank you for your question and the great confidence you place in us. May Allah reward you abundantly for your interest in knowing the teachings of Islam!

Marriage is indeed a sacred bond that brings together a man and a woman by virtue of the teachings of the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Indeed, Allah Almighty describes this relationship is as though one is a garment to the other; “they are a libas (i.e. body cover) for you and you are the same for them” (Al-Baqarah: 187), thus illustrating the closeness, affection, warmth and love of one for the other.

Thus, each partner in this sacred relationship must treat the other beautifully and properly. A man must not divorce his wife to bring harm upon her, as this constitutes an act that demolishes this noble establishment, breaks the woman’s heart, and possibly separates the woman from her children without any reason. Thus, the separation between a man and his wife [without just reason] was considered one of the major and grave sins, and one of the most beloved actions of Satan, as was narrated in a number of hadiths.

Just as a man must never divorce his wife in order to bring harm upon her without reason, it is also forbidden for a woman to ask for a divorce without a sensible reason. However, she is allowed to ask for a divorce for an acceptable reason.

Elaborating on this issue, we'd like to cite for you the words of Sheik Yusuf Al-Qaradawi in his well-known book, The Lawful and the Prohibited in Islam. He writes:

"The woman who cannot bear to live with her husband has the right to free herself from the marriage bond by returning to her husband the mahr (required marriage gift) and gifts he has given her, or more or less than that according to their mutual agreement. It is, however, preferable that he should not ask for more than he has given her. Allah Almighty says: "...And if you (the judges) fear that the two may not be able to keep to the limits ordained by Allah, there is no blame on either of them if she redeems herself (from the marriage tie by returning all or part of the mahr)..." (Al-Baqarah: 229)

The wife of Thabit ibn Qays came to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and said, "O Messenger of Allah, I do not reproach Thabit ibn Qays in respect of character and religion, but I do not want to be guilty of showing anger to him.'' (Her meaning was that although Thabit was a good man, she was unable to get along with him and thus might not be able to show him the respect due to a husband.) The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) asked her about what she had received from him. She replied, "A garden." He asked, "Will you give him back his garden?" "Yes," she said. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) then told Thabit, "Accept the garden and make one declaration of divorce." (Reported by al-Bukhari and an-Nasa'i)

It is not permissible for woman to seek divorce from her husband unless she has borne ill-treatment from him or unless she has an acceptable reason which requires their separation. Said the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), "If any woman asks her husband for a divorce without some strong reason, the fragrance of the Garden will be forbidden to her." (Reported by Abu Dawud)"
Men

Quote:

Dear scholars, As-Salamu `alaykum. What does Islam say about divorce? I mean if there are some qualities which the husband does not like in his wife, should he divorce her? Jazakum Allah khayran.
Quote:

Dear brother in Islam, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.

Marriage is indeed a sacred bond that brings together a man and a woman by virtue of the teachings of the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Thus, each partner in this sacred relationship must treat the other beautifully and properly.

A man must not divorce his wife to bring harm upon her, as this constitutes an act that demolishes this noble establishment, breaks the woman’s heart, and possibly separates the woman from her children without any reason. Thus, the separation between a man and his wife [without just reason] was considered one of the major and grave sins, and one of the most beloved actions of Satan, as was narrated in a number of hadiths. It is also forbidden for a woman to ask for a divorce without a sensible reason.

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Among lawful things, divorce is most hated by Allah." (Reported by Abu Dawud) The spouses should avoid divorce as much as possible. If they have difficulties and problems they should try to work out their differences and seek help from their relatives, friends or professional counselors. However, if the differences are irreconcilable then divorce is permissible, but it should be done in a decent manner.

Elaborating on this issue, we'd like to cite for you the words of Sheik Yusuf Al-Qaradawi in his well-known book, The Lawful and the Prohibited in Islam. He writes:

"A husband must be patient with his wife if he sees something in her that he disapproves and dislikes. He should recognize that he is dealing with a human being with natural imperfections, and he should balance her good qualities with her failings. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “Let a believing man not dislike a believing woman. If something in her is displeasing to him, another trait may be pleasing.”

And Allah Almighty says, "...And consort with them in kindness, for if you dislike them, it may be that you dislike something in which Allah has placed much good." (An-Nisa': 19)

While on the one hand, Islam requires the husband to be tolerant and patient with what he dislikes in his wife, on the other hand, it commands the wife to try to please her husband as far as her ability and charm allows, and warns her not to let a night pass during which her husband remains angry with her. A hadith states: "There are three (persons) whose prayer does not rise even a single span above their heads: a man leading a congregational prayer while the people hate him, a woman passing the night while her husband is angry with her, and two quarreling brothers." (Reported by Ibn Majah and by Ibn Hibban in his Sahih)

Because of his natural ability and his responsibility for providing for his family, the man is the head of the house and of the family. He is entitled to the obedience and cooperation of his wife, and accordingly it is not permissible for her to rebel against his authority, causing disruption. Without a captain the ship of the household will flounder and sink. If the husband senses that feelings of disobedience and rebelliousness are rising against him in his wife, he should try his best to rectify her attitude by kind words, gentle persuasion, and reasoning with her. If this is not helpful, he should sleep apart from her, trying to awaken her agreeable feminine nature so that serenity may be restored and she may respond to him in a harmonious fashion. If this approach fails, it is permissible for him to admonish her lightly with his hands, avoiding her face and other sensitive areas. In no case should he resort to using a stick or any other instrument which might cause pain and injury. Rather this should be of the kind which the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) once when angry with his servant, said to him: “If it were not for the fear of retaliation on the Day of Resurrection, I would have hit you with this miswak (tooth-cleaning stick).” (Reported by Ibn Sa`d in his Tabaqat)

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) admonished men concerning beating their wives, saying, "None of you must beat his wife as a slave is beaten, and then have intercourse with her at the end of the day." (Reported by Ahmad; al-Bukhari has something similar to it)

It was reported to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) that some of his Companions beat their wives, whereupon he said, "Certainly those are not the best among you." (Reported by Ahmad, Abu Dawud and an-Nasa'i and classified by Ibn Hibban and al-Hakim as authentic)

If all of these approaches fail, and the rift between the husband and wife deepens, the matter then devolves on the Islamic society for solution. Two individuals of good will and sound judgment, one from the wife's and one from the husband's side, should meet with the couple in order to try to resolve their differences. Perhaps the sincerity of their efforts may bear fruit and Allah may bring about reconciliation between the spouses.

These various approaches are stated by Allah in the following verses: "...And as for those women on whose part you fear stubbornness, (first) admonish them; then refuse to share their beds; and (finally) beat them (lightly). Then if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance); indeed, Allah is Most High, Great. And if you fear breach between the two of them, appoint an arbiter from his family and an arbiter from her family. If they desire to set things aright, Allah will bring about reconciliation between them; indeed, Allah is Knowing, Aware." (An-Nisa': 34-35)

If all these efforts fail and every course tried proves to be of no avail, the husband may resort to the final solution permitted by the Shari`ah of Islam. In response to the bitter realities of life, when difficulties cannot be resolved except through the separation of the two parties in an honorable fashion, Islam has made the provision of divorce. Islam has permitted divorce reluctantly, neither liking nor commending it. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "Among lawful things, divorce is most hated by Allah." (Reported by Abu Dawud)

That a thing is lawful yet detested by Allah means that it is permissible under unavoidable circumstances, when living together becomes torture, mutual hatred is deep-seated, and it becomes difficult for the two parties to observe the limits of Allah and to fulfill their marital responsibilities. In such a situation separation is better, and Allah Almighty says, “But if they separate, Allah will provide for each of them out of His abundance...” (An-Nisa': 130)"

So we can see that Islam doesnt de facto offer possibility of divorce to women without the husbands consent. Beating a wife for exsample, like our beheaded victim was, isnt a basis for divorce. Its just one method of controlling a woman sanctioned by Islam. These answers reveal the misogynistic attitude that Syed Kamran Mirza wrote in the essay i posted. The apologists at Subsim dont want to see or admit this for some reason or the other.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus
and
http://www.worldandi.com/newhome/pub.../may/clpub.asp

The article is too long to quote here but it is written by James Emery who is an anthropologist and journalist. Information for his article was obtained through interviews and research conducted in North America, West Asia, and the Middle East.

In the article he also emphasis that Honour Killings are not "authorized" in the Qura'n nor in Islam

I will quote it.

Quote:

From the tribal standpoint, the only way a family can regain its honor is to eliminate the women in question. "The law of the clan is sacred," notes Jibril, a Palestinian merchant. "A man is entitled to kill for his honor." Several Palestinians justified honor killings by equating a woman's reputation to glass, porcelain, or other fragile objects, stating, "Once broken, it is ruined. It cannot be fixed or repaired."

In some areas, a Palestinian woman is required to have a male relative accompany her whenever she leaves the home. Unfortunately, her male "guardian"--father, brother, uncle, or cousin--may be a sexual predator who rapes her. Should she become pregnant, he will publicly condemn her for dishonoring the family after killing both her and their unborn child. Last year, seventeen-year-old Afaf Younes was killed by her father, who had allegedly been sexually molesting her. Afaf had tried to escape his sexual abuse by running away, but she was caught and returned to her father. He then shot her in the name of honor.
A sixteen-year-old Palestinian girl became pregnant after being raped by her younger brother. Once her condition became known, her family encouraged her older brother to kill her to remove the blemish from their honor. Her brothers, the rapist and the murderer, were exonerated. The girl was blamed. "She made a mistake," said one of her male cousins. "She had to pay for it."

Even more horrifically, a four-year-old Palestinian girl, raped by a man in his mid-twenties, was left by her family to bleed to death. They did this because they felt her misfortune would sully their honor.
Women often accept their fate and expect to be executed, even in the case of incest and rape. "They have to kill us," exclaims Ritza, a middle-aged Palestinian woman, "to keep others from doing wrong. It is the law of our society." It is hard to grasp the logic.
Girls, feeling they are ruined by scandal, go submissively to the slaughter. Such is the power of culture that has conditioned both victim and killer to accept their roles. "He had no choice but to kill her," says Rateb, whose son killed his sixteen-year-old sister after she was raped. "He was tormented. The community was persecuting him because of what his sister did. Her death has helped to wash away his shame."
and quote again Syed Kamran Mirzas essay.

Quote:

Most Muslim apologists and also some gullible westerners want to argue that the ‘so called “honor killing” is not Islamic and it’s a tribal/cultural vice.’ This statement is utterly untrue and only a wish full covers up. It’s true that in pre-Islamic Arab culture this heinous honor killing of women did exist; likewise, many other uncivilized practices like stoning, flogging, beheading, slavery etc also existed in the pre-Islamic Arab society. But Islam did incorporate entirely most of these inhumane/uncivilized practices of pagan society, which they now call them Allah’s laws.

Had it been the tribal/cultural practice, ‘honor killing’ would exist amongst the Arabs only. But honor killing does happen amongst the non-Arab Muslims also. Also Arabs belonged to all religions (Muslims, Christians, Jews, Bhai etc.) would practice honor killing with equal prevalence. Fact of the matter is—no Arab Christians, Jews or Bahai etc do practice this uncivilized act at all. Only Arab Muslims do practice this heinous act with a regular pattern.

Honor killing does happen only amongst the Muslims and these honor killings get support and encouragement from the ethical teachings of religion Islam. In 1986 this kind of honor killing did happen in the United States of America in an Arab Muslim family. In 2003 honor killing happened in Sweden again in a Muslim family. However, some very rare, sporadic case of such killing might have happened in other society or people of other religion. But they are no where near to compare with the regular pattern, or routine feature of honor killings which do happen in the Muslim nations that I have mentioned. It has been reported that in Pakistan and in Jordan several hundreds of “honor killings” do happen every year. Perhaps, it will be more plausible to name this so called ‘honor’ as the “Islamic honor”, which Muslims stupendously try to save by killing their love one!

Tribesman 02-19-09 07:21 AM

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This is were you cannot compare Quran and bible anymore, because the Quran in the first three centuries has seen many local versions and manipulated editions that local rulers tailored to their needs to justif by it their means of performing their power and pushing their interests - true,
Bloody hell ???? how many versions of the bible have there been where local powers have manipulated their editions to suit their needs and push their interests .
Whole books were removed , rewritten or just written and added .

Quote:

But after Muhammad - followed nobody
:rotfl:
You really don't know much about Islamic scripture do you , in fact you don't know much about Christian scripture either .
In one breath you are saying Christian scripture was changed but didn't change and in the next saying Muslim scripture didn't change but was changed .

Happy Times 02-19-09 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tchocky
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird
There is some truth in it, Tchocky. I have said that before, too. The German police's yearly statistics show that especially in youth crime and crimes done by young adults, Muslim immigrants are massively overrepresented, compared to native german young population or foreigners from non-Muslim countries.

This is a common trend in quite a few european countries, more crime committed by people without roots in the region. But it's not what HT is saying.

Saying that they are massively over-represented in an age demographic is different than saying muslims are responsible for ten times the level of murder, beatings, and sexual assault than someone from a non-muslim background or religion.

Your own post points to a ratio of general criminality to somewhere between 2 and 3. Happy Times says 10. This may qualify as "some truth".
I want to know if he has anything to back it up with. Or if he picked the number ten out of the air, or parts unknown.

You did see the Finnish figures i posted?
I did look at some British statistics about different counties crime by ethnic brakeup versus population. They clearly point to a 6-13% range but as the religion or accurate ethnicity isnt stated i wont guess. The Blacks seem to have same sized crime rate in Britain and most of them arent Muslims to my knowledge.
Noticiable and most worrying about muslim crime in Europe is that its commited by gangs. They are often not under influence of any substance when they commit violence, robberies, riots or their specialty, violent gang rapes.

Here is an article that goes behind the reasons of these high rates of crime.
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/938

Quote:

Swedish Welfare State Collapses as Immigrants Wage War


Last year I wrote an article about how Swedish society is disintegrating and is in danger of collapsing, at least in certain areas and regions. The country that gave us Bergman, ABBA and Volvo could become known as the Bosnia of northern Europe. The “Swedish model” would no longer refer to a stable and peaceful state with an advanced economy, but to a Eurabian horror story of utopian multiculturalism, socialist mismanagement and runaway immigration. Some thought I was exaggerating, and that talk of the possibility of a future civil war in Sweden was pure paranoia. Was it?

In a new sociological survey (pdf in Swedish, with brief English introduction) entitled “Vi krigar mot svenskarna” (“We’re waging a war against the Swedes”), young immigrants in the troubled city of Malmö have been interviewed about why they are involved in crime. Although it is not stated, most of the immigrant perpetrators are Muslims. In one of the rare instances where the Swedish media actually revealed the truth, the newspaper Aftonbladet reported several years ago that 9 out of 10 of the most criminal ethnic groups in Sweden came from Muslim countries. This must be borne in mind whilst reading the following newspaper article:

Immigrants are “waging war” against Swedes through robbery

The wave of robberies the city of Malmö has witnessed during this past year is part of a “war against the Swedes.” This is the explanation given by young robbers from immigrant backgrounds when questioned about why they only rob native Swedes, in interviews with Petra Åkesson for her thesis in sociology. “I read a report about young robbers in Stockholm and Malmö and wanted to know why they rob other youths. It usually does not involve a lot of money,” she says. She interviewed boys between 15 and 17 years old, both individually and in groups.

Almost 90% of all robberies reported to the police were committed by gangs, not individuals. “When we are in the city and robbing we are waging a war, waging a war against the Swedes.” This argument was repeated several times. “Power for me means that the Swedes shall look at me, lie down on the ground and kiss my feet.” The boys explain, laughingly, that “there is a thrilling sensation in your body when you’re robbing, you feel satisfied and happy, it feels as if you’ve succeeded, it simply feels good.” “It’s so easy to rob Swedes, so easy.” “We rob every single day, as often as we want to, whenever we want to.” The immigrant youth regard the Swedes as stupid and cowardly: “The Swedes don’t do anything, they just give us the stuff. They’re so wimpy.” The young robbers do not plan their crimes: “No, we just see some Swedes that look rich or have nice mobile phones and then we rob them.”

Why do they hate the Swedes so much? “Well, they hate us,” Petra Åkesson reports them as answering. “When a Swede goes shopping, the lady behind the counter gives him the money back into his hand, looks into his eyes and laughs. When we go shopping, she puts the money on the counter and looks the other way.” Åkesson, who is adopted from Sri Lanka and hence does not look like a native Swede, says it was not difficult to get the boys to talk about their crimes. Rather they were bragging about who had committed the most robberies. Malin Åkerström,a professor in sociology, sees only one solution to the problem: “Jobs for everybody. If this entails a deregulation of the labor market to create more jobs, then we should do so.”

It is interesting to note that these Muslim immigrants state quite openly that they are involved in a “war,” and see participation in crime and harassment of the native population as such. This is completely in line with what I have posited before. The number of rape charges in Sweden has quadrupled in just above twenty years. Rape cases involving children under the age of 15 are six times as common today as they were a generation ago. Most other kinds of violent crime have rapidly increased, too. Instability is spreading to most urban and suburban areas. Resident aliens from Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia dominate the group of rape suspects. Lawyer Ann Christine Hjelm found that 85 per cent of the convicted rapists were born on foreign soil or from foreign parents. The phenomenon is not restricted to Sweden. The number of rapes committed by Muslim immigrants in Western nations is so extremely high that it is difficult to view these rapes as merely random acts of individuals. It resembles warfare. This is happening in most Western European countries, as well as in other non muslim countries such as India. European jails are filling up with Muslims imprisoned for robberies and all kinds of violent crimes, and Muslims bomb European civilians. One can see the mainstream media are struggling to make sense of all of this. That is because they cannot, or do not want to, see the obvious: this is exactly how an invading army would behave: rape, pillage and bombing. If many of the Muslim immigrants see themselves as conquerors in a war, it all makes perfect sense.

Malmö in Sweden, set to become the first Scandinavian city with a Muslim majority within a decade or two, has nine times as many reported robberies per capita as Copenhagen, Denmark. Yet the number one priority for the political class in Sweden during this year’s national election campaign seems to be demonizing neighboring Denmark for “xenophobia” and a “brutal” debate about Muslim immigration. During last years Jihad riots in France, Sweden’s Social Democratic Prime Minister Göran Persson criticised the way the French government handled the unrest in the country. “It feels like a very hard and confrontational approach.” Persson also rejected the idea of more local police as a “first step” in Sweden. “I don’t believe that’s the way we would choose in Sweden. To start sending out signals about strengthening the police is to break with the political line we have chosen to follow,” he said. Meanwhile, as their authorities have largely abandoned their third largest city to creeping anarchy, there is open talk among the native Swedes still remaining in Malmö of forming vigilante groups armed with baseball bats out of concern for their children’s safety. As I argued in another essay: If Arnold Schwarzenegger fails to get re-elected as Governor of California he may like to do a sequel to “Conan the Barbarian.” He could shoot it in Malmö. He will get the extras for free.

What happened to the famous Swedish nanny state, you say? Don’t Swedes pay the highest tax rates in the world? Yes, they do. But tens of billions of kroner, some say several hundred billions, are being spent every year on propping up rapidly growing communities of Muslim immigrants. Sweden has become the entire world’s welfare office, because the political elites have decided that massive Muslim immigration is “good for the economy.” Soon Sweden’s “army” may comprise no more than 5,000 men, five thousand troops to defend a nation more than three times the area of England. Moreover, it may take up to a year to assemble all of them, provided they are not on peacekeeping missions abroad. That Sweden might soon need a little peacekeeping at home seems to escape the establishment. In 2006 the celebrated Swedish welfare state has become the world’s largest pyramid scheme, an Enron with a national flag.

Although Sweden is an extreme example, similar stories could be told about much of Western Europe. As Mark Steyn points out, the Jihad in the streets of France looked like the early skirmishes of an impending Eurabian civil war, brought on by massive Muslim immigration and Multicultural stupidity. Law and order is slowly breaking down in major and even minor cities across the European continent, and the streets are ruled by aggressive gangs of Muslim youngsters. At the same time, Europeans are paying some of the highest taxes in the world. We should remind our authorities that the most important task of the state – some would even claim it should be the only task of the state – is to uphold the rule of law in exchange for taxation. Since it is becoming pretty obvious that this is no longer the case in Eurabia, we should question whether these taxes are still legitimate, or whether they are simply disguised Jizya paid in the form of welfare to Muslims and our new Eurocrat aristocracy. Although not exactly the Boston Tea Party, perhaps the time has now come for a pan-European tax rebellion: We will no longer pay taxes until our authorities restore law and order and close the borders to Muslim immigration.

This is urgent. When enough people feel that the system is no longer working and that the social contract has been breached, the entire fabric of democratic society could unravel. What happens when the welfare state system breaks down, and there is no longer enough money to “grease” the increasing tensions between immigrants and native Europeans? And what happens when people discover that their own leaders, through the EU networks and the Euro-Arab Dialogue described by Bat Ye’or in her book “Eurabia,” have been encouraging all these Muslims to settle here in the first place? There will be massive unemployment, and tens of millions of people will feel angry, scared and humiliated, betrayed by the system, by society and by their own democratic leaders. This is a situation in some ways similar to the Great Depression that led to the rise of the Nazis in the 1930s. Is this where we are heading once again, with fear, rising Fascism and political assassinations? The difference is that the “Jewish threat” in the 1930s was entirely fictional, whereas the “Islamic threat” now is very real. However, it is precisely the trauma caused by the events of 70 years ago that is clouding our judgement this time, since any talk at all about the threat posed by Muslim immigration or about preserving our own culture is being dismissed as “the same rhetoric as the Nazis used against the Jews.” Europeans have been taught to be so scared of our own shadows that we are incapable of seeing that darkness can come from the outside, too. Maybe Europe will burn again, in part as a belated reaction to the horrors of Auschwitz.


Skybird 02-19-09 08:22 AM

Read again. You did not understand what I said, and you say I said things that I did not say the way you name them.

About my knowledge on Islamic history and the many situations when orthodoxy successfully (and far more successful than the Catholic church was) strangled attempts to question this orthodoxy so that these attempted reforms all in all produced no influence on reforming the Quran, I must not be in doubt after having studied it for years.

Just in case this becomes just another opportunity to try engaging me in a distracting debate about my person so that the issue itself gets forgotten, I already say good-bye in advance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird: A critical history of Islam
As far as the content and verbal style is concerned, generally a split is perceived in the Quran, separating the scriptures of Muhammad’s time in Mekka (beeing more metaphysical in content and style, focussing on ethical and spiritual questions) from those scriptures that are basing on his preachings in Medina, that shows more pragmatical relation to situations and problems of practical life, and are said to be of less prosaic language. (...) It is undisputed amongst Quran-researchers, that the better part of the book without doubt is basing on Muhammad at least actively helping to shape it’s content. The academical voices that defended an opinion that without doubt ALL it’s content is „Muhammad pure“ nevertheless are said to have become rare since a longer while now.

The Quran is regarded as Allah’s revelation to mankind and thus is the basis of Muslim belief. It’s creation must not be explained, because Allah always have been existent and so the Quaran as his word and will cannot have been created by man – as an idea it has always been there. The many doubts that are existent about the tradition that influenced and conserved it’s form and made it to what it is today, are therefor ignored and considered to be irrelevant. Pragmatical from a Muslim point of view, but hardly acceptable for a less metaphysical mindset.

During Muhammad’S lifetime his prophecies had been conserved by verbal delivery and fixing in writing, using palm-leafs, leather, and whatever material was used for that purpose. The effort to do so was unsystematical and unorganized, so that the tradition was scattered around somewhat. Parts of these preachings additionally got lost, when close followers of Muhammad, who had learned to memorize „their“ part of the always increasing collection of preachings, had been killed in one of the many battles they went through. The first Kalif after Muhammad’s death, Abu Bakr (who also was Muhammad’s father-in-law), therefor ordered Muhammad‘s last secretary to collect all written and verbal material that was circulating, to bring it into an order and to fix it in a final writing. The result was a first version of the Quaran about which we know almost nothing today. After Abu Bakr’s death two years after that of Muhammad, his successor, the second Kalif, Umar, is said to have given this version to his daugther Hafsa, Muhammad’s fourth wife, because she should have had such a splendid memory that she seemed to be ideally fitted to become the guardian of a Quaran that now was hoped to see no more changes added to it by circulating different fragments and contents, whose originality was uncertain. However, orientalists raise serious doubts that it could have been like this. It seems to be untrustworthy that the most important document of Islam‘s faith should have been given into the hands of a woman, that – although beeing Muhammad’s wife - was of relatively minor importance in history.

Not that this question is of much importance, because this version of the Quran found no general acceptance, and few years later again complaints were raised, that in the provinces still a growing diversity of different versions of the Quaran were circulating, most or all of them adding new things or reinterpreting it towards a higher level of political relevance, or reinterpreting it in other ways that did not seem to be acceptable, or did not have any authenticity. So the new, third Kalif, Uthman, again ordered Muhammad’s old secretary to collect and form a new version of the Quaran, which he did and compared it with the first version that still was in possession of Hafsa. He also reworked and translated all material into the dominat Arab dialect, that of Mekka, because the fragments that had been scattered around were written or memorized in various different languages. Of this new version he created, only five numbers were written down and were given to the five centers of Islamic knowledge in Mekka, Medina, Damascus, Basra and Kufa.

Scientific research asks some very serious questions about this course of the whole story. It is assumed that there was no single authority, no agreed institution of competence for the Quran existent. That there were two main versions created may have been a sign that there may have been at least two rivalling traditions of interpretation. Criterias for what was accepted for both of these main versions, and what not, are unknown, also who rasied these criterias, if this should mean there were no central figure of evaluationg it all, then this may be interpreted as arbitrariness deciding the second form of the Quran, or choices made that were born out of political opportunism. And why was the first version without influence, why was the number of different versions beside that first collection of writings constantly increasing? All this is in contradiction to Islam’s understanding, that the Quaran was from the very beginning of Islam’s history what it always had been in later times. It cannot have been like that. Islam ignores these questions, and says that all this is unimportant. Despite all the obvious changes it must have gone thorugh, it should have remained unchanged since the beginning. A miracle? But, as P. Raddatz points towards an important question that kept Quran reseach before second world war very busy, how was it possible that during 25 years an ever increasing number of many followers memorized all verbal inspirations and preachings of Muhammad (and that was quite an impressive lot of material!!) , spreading them around all over their living places, giving them to others, so that thousands of passages went through thousands of ears and mouths – and nevertheless all of it shouldn’t have changed the smallest bit, and should have seen no faults and no adulterations (Verfälschungen) of even a minor kind? It is difficult enough to learn the whole Quran from fixed writing only, to learn it without faults by hear-say only seems to be beyond ability of man.

As if this not already raised doubts in the complete originality of today’s Quaran, an even greater problem existed – the changes in written language during the two- or threehundred years after Muhammad’s death. Not before the 10th century the introduction of diacritic punctuation („diakritische Punktierung“) to Arab writing was completed, which changed vocalisation and meaning of words of Arab dialects significantly. I must blindly follow the linguists here, since I do not have any knowledge of that on my own, but they say that the translation of the second Quran version into the new version of Arabic writing necessarily must have increased the level of misinterpretations or changes of understandings of given words, and very drastically so. The new punctuation caused the changes of letters into different ones, and due to the inner nature of Arab language this meant, that words and complete sentences could transform into complete new meanings and understandings. This is the main reason, probably, why the number of different versions of the Quaran, with sometimes very dramatic changes in meaning and content of complete passages, grew constantly in the two hundred years after Muhammad’s death. A caste of professional Quran-readers had been formed by this, and they had high political influence, since due to the unity of religion and politics in Islam their individual interpretations of the Quran really made a difference in local policies. - Even today preachers at the traditional Friday prayers are having high political influence and a significant power to mobilize their community. - They also implemented up to seven differing major traditions of interpretation, that took quite some time to get reduced to a smaller number of traditions again. Like especially radical preachers today, they also may have had personal ambitions, coming from the power that they had to influence the crowds. The impression Islam is giving, that it only were different styles of verbal recitation, has been proven wrong by science, it has not been that simple and harmless and this claim holds no ground. It was not only different styles in presentation, but different conclusions by different styles of interpretation of the Quran, and different versions of Quaran itself. Today’s diversity in possible Quran interpretation, that allows both fundamentalists and non-fundamentalists to justify their deeds by the Quran and find coverage from it, may have found it’s reason in this chapter of history.

Kalif Uthman obviously made a wise decision to concentrate the interpretation of Quaran on the five centers of knowledge that were delivered the only five existing issues of the second official collection of the Quaran scriptures. He made a cut and accepted that an uncertain ammount of falsified, wrong material, that was lacking any authenticity, found entrance into the official Quaran. Anything was better than to allow a further spreading of different traditions to interpret the Quaran that only could have led to an increasing diversity in faith – exactly what Islam ideology does NOT want. The Quran-readers that made their living by interpreting the Quaran, and twisted it to the liking of the political needs of those who ordered and payed for their services, or to their own ambitions, lost their jobs and political influence. The centralization of interpreting the Quaran ended the regional political agitation and strengthened centralized, superregional powerstructures.

Due to lacking knowledge of myself I must blindly point out that linguists are able to illustrate how the origin of the word qur’an links parts of the Mekkanesian (?) scriptures of the Quran to the traditon of Christian liturgy, and Christian tradition and languages. This is critical, because Muslims think of the Quran to have been send down to man in Arab language – the Arab language that is known today. But that form of language did not exist before twohundred years after Muhammad’s death. So how could his preachings have been conserved and delivered, if not by accepting that the first and original version of the Quran had not been send down to man and fixed in punctuated Arabic, but more likely in a mixture of the dialect of the Quraysh and Arameic language, or Syrian dialects? Some commentators say that the Quran originally may have been a liturgic reading for Christian services, and that up to one quarter of the Quran’s content until today raises verbal problems with Islamic interpretations of passages that seem to point more towards Christian tradition and the Old and New Testament than towards the usual Muslim interpretation of this stuff. They also argue that the Quran may not have been a document of it’s own value and religious right, but may have been something like a comment to the writings of the Christians, focussing on them as the main word. These authors argue that the Quran probably has no original identity of it’s own, but was more an added comment on the basis of a foreign religious scripture, which most probably may have been the Bible.

Islam’s claim that the original language of the Quaran has been Arabic is highly questionable from an academical point of view, and it’s belief of the Quran’s delivery in that language (despite the well-documented changes the Arab language went through between the 7th and 10th century) as a miracle does not add anything valuable to discussion. The Quaran’s claimed originality is highly speculative, seen that way.
(...)
Although Uthman had made sure that the Quran was no longer to be mixed and watered by contacts with foreign teachings, there was still the chance that it would be „misinterpreted“ by the simple fact, that the Arab conquerers, when they started to leave the Arab peninsula and spread Allahs word outside, would somewhat mix and water it when coming in contact with the traditions in Egypt and Syria, here factions were living that were hostile to Byzanz and for that reason tend to sympathise with the Arabs - who could not avoid to be influenced by these foreign religions in return, because their leaders even demanded them to treat friendly those that were hostile towards Byzanz – which now was the Muslim Arabs’ enemy. Although it took until late into the 8th century until the Quaran as we know it today had strengthend in structure and content, one thing was undisputed and beyond doubt for every Muslim from the beginning: that it was the word of Allah, without fault, without doubt, without wrong, without any reason to ask, examine or critisize it, always existent, never changing. This „hard belief“, immune to changes, even more consolidating itself in the more than 1300 years to come, made it impossible for Muslim religion to establish a tradition of self-critical examination of it’s own basis of beliefs, as we have seen it in the developement of Christian tradition, that led to the splitting into different Christians churches and sects, eventually, but nevertheless helped to gain a more modern understanding of Christianity‘s own faith, that considered the many changes the mental evolution of western man during the diffrent phases of Western cultural history went through. The raised levels of knowledge and insight changed Christian religion, growing education lowered the need for religously motivated regulation, the implementation of legal laws replaced the enforcment of religious commandments. But Muslim theology did stop to develope very early in Islam’s history in an understanding of critically examining itself (if the heretic’s writings are not counted as part of the official theology), and seen that way one could even say that it does not exist in a western understanding. There also is only a very limited, often non-existent interest in interreligious and intercultural exchange, whereas the West’s Christianity has developed a theological and academical highly differentiated science of comparing cultures and religions, as well as analysing it’S own history of developement, and origins of scriptures. Paradoxically this lacking ability to adopt to changes, that makes it so tough for Islamic communities in Arab countries to arrive in the modern era, is the basis for Muslim argumentation that Islam, unchanged since long, is superior to any other idea: it did not change because it did not need to do so: as the word of Allah, the basis of it’s faith – the Quran - was perfect from the beginning and thus any correctional change could only have meant: weakness, and falsification of the truth. One needs to reflect this if one wants to understand why the simple export of Western ideas to Islamic countries usually do not trigger the effects one expected (social and powerpolitical structures being also a factor, but not the deciding one). It’s the religiously founded mentality and it’s influence on cultural climate.

Quran is understood by Islam as beeing the renewal of the faith (a faith that needed to be restored time and again by a long chain of prophets (Noah, Moses and Jesus beeing just three of them), which in form of Islam itself had found it’s final and unquestionable and most superb expression to which the scriptures of Christians and Jews are inferior, and sinful aberration only of the only true book there is - Quran. Followers of these false doctrine could only win God’s goodwill by giving up their false beliefs and surrender to the superiority of the Quran. Quarn as an Arab word means „recitation“, a repeating and endless recitation of the word of Allah so that it is not to be forgotten ever again, neither by individuals, nor by mankind. It is structured into 114 Sures, in a sequences of presenting the longest in the first, and the shortest at the end (with the only exception of the opening Sure). The single verses (aya=signs of wonder) change by lingual style and prose, depending on wether a given Sure had it’s origin in Muhammad‘s time in Mekka, or Medina. After the second main version of the Quran had been fixed in writing by order of Calif Uthman, seven or eight traditions of conformal recitation builded up, from which – in combination with the increasing introduction of punctuation to Arab language - finally the version of the Quaran emerged that is known today. While the different recitation styles already were collected by Ibn Mudjahid until the first half of the 8th century, the process of verbally transforming the Quran into it’s present form hardly could have been finished until the late 9th or maybe even 10th century.
(...)
One of the most basic differences between Christians and Muslims is that in Muslim understanding man is not subject to original sin, but to flawed ways of believing. Consequently it concentrates on lecturing what the right way of believing really is. Since the Quran is seen as the infallible revelation of Allah, it represents Allah’s ultimate will. This excuses the using of every means necessary to enforce the faith in Allah at all costs and by all means necessary. If today’S western Muslims claim Islam to be tolerant towards other religions, than this is a watering of one of the most basic elements of Islam’s self-perception, seeing the revelation of Allah as obilgation to enforce it’s existence everywhere amongst mankind – at all costs. Where in later historical events Islamic rulers showed such tolerance, it more was an issue of pragmatical calculation of efforts needed and expected benefits, than an acceptance of the foreigners false beliefs (that’s how I see it with regard to the Ottomans on the Balkans and in Hungary who concentrated on economically and financially exploiting the country; and the Ummayade’s Califat in Grenada, both beeing the most often quoted examples in defense of Islam‘s tolerance).
(...)
Allah embedds man in a two-level-developement: the constant recreation of life, and by that the constant sharpening and developement of an attitude that is oriented more and more towards the presence of Allah. In Islamic understanding, evolution is not about diversity, survival of the fittest, or growing systemic complexity, but an ever-growing of Muslim faith and awareness for the omnipresence of Allah. Evolution necessarily creates the Muslim man of the future, this as a natural law of evolution excuses any attempts to help in that, by peace or by force: because man’s turning towards a more Muslim state of mind is considered to be always a natural case, the attractor of evolution: one only helps in what without doubt would take place anyway. Islam’s certainity that the future will be his cannot be brought into doubt, for that reason, and this is one of the explanations for it’svery great patience: it is founded on absolute confidence. This can be strength and weakness at different times. It can make Muslim people act very energetic , or it can make the fall victim to passivity that reaches the level of fatalism. The confidence that all evolution necessarily leads towards an Islam future feeds back on the missionary spirit of Islam and it’s expansive identity.

The cult of the Kaaba, the monotheistic reorientation focussing on the founding figure of Abraaham, helped to enforce Islam’s demand to be the absolute, ultimate truth beside which there is no other. Christians and Jews may be „people of the book“, but this term has two meanings, something that most Westerners do not know. Because it also is linked to the term „script-holder“ („Schriftbesitzer“) Not only does „people of the book“ point towards an assumed nearness between all three religions, because all three people are three tribes beeing mentioned in the „book“ (the West beeing very eager to point this out in an attempt to let the differences appear more harmless and raising acceptance for what it calls it’s dialogue with Islam), it also means this: „people of the book“ are also „owners of scriptures“ and script-holders, people that „possess“ their religion as a material good, a script, only, and thus fall victim to their craving for material possession of things: they do not focus on the content of their religious message, but on the material scripture itself, the rites and dogmas raised from that by the caste of priests and pharisees, they get distracted from the essence (in principle the critizism that later was raised again by various Christian mystics). In the language of Zen: they did not look at the moon, but concentrated on the finger pointing at it, and wanted to own it. The sin of these wrong-believers is that they concentrate on a religion of priests, not on the essence of the religion itself – of which Islam thinks itself is the purest form there ever has been. Muhammad himself was unable to read or write. By this new ideology that made a difference between script-owner and those whose religion did not have a written script (Islam so far) he nevertheless was able to overcome theological resistance coming from the script-owners more easily (people that had a holy book already, and had learned to read). The encounters with the Jewish theologists showed that Muhammad had not the knowledge to dispute with Jewish and Christian theologists on equal terms, and his bloody revenge shows how much he felt annoyed („gekränkt“) by that. Later Muhammad attacked the script-owning people also for that these scriptures were the reason why their faith was splitting up in more and more subbeliefs and sects (of which there were plenty), a process that was born by self-reflecting analysis and examination. Thus Islam’s immunity to self-reflection and self-analysis. In it’s understanding this can only lead to weakening the unity of the Ummah. Strength comes from ignorance, insight means: having no doubts, so to say.


August 02-19-09 08:51 AM

Quoting ones own writing like it was some kind of authoritative text is the height of arrogance. :roll:

Tribesman 02-19-09 09:24 AM

Quote:

Here is an article that goes behind
An article from the journal , a neo-con publication that contains pretty much nothing but rants against Muslims , immigrants and so called political correctness .
Still I suppose it is a small step up from Jihadwatch , well done for making progress .

Quote:

The Sheikh is a Wahhabist but in Canada he is considered "moderate muslim scholar working against fundamentalism".
Damn thats confusing . Don't you mean that he is a Wahhibist which is a fundamentalist but is considered a moderate fundamentlist because he speaks out against the extremist version of wahhibi fundamentaslism .

Onkel Neal 02-19-09 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August
Quoting ones own writing like it was some kind of authoritative text is the height of arrogance. :roll:

But it saves a lot of typing time :)

I think he just wanted to refer back to some of his earlier statements.

Aramike 02-19-09 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August
Quoting ones own writing like it was some kind of authoritative text is the height of arrogance. :roll:

:haha:

So true...

Skybird 02-19-09 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens
But it saves a lot of typing time :)

:up: :rock:

Quote:

I think he just wanted to refer back to some of his earlier statements.
:up: :yep:

Zayphod 02-19-09 01:49 PM

Ok, I think I have a solution to all of this.

Everyone in the world should convert to Buddhism. Not a lot of wars fought over it, no beheading in their name.

I believe it involves a lot of sticking one's head into a ton of books and hours of chanting OM, as well as contemplating your navel a lot, which will keep lots of people too busy to shoot or kill anyone.

Involves lots of incest and...... , uh, what?.... oh, sorry, that's INCENSE, not incest, sorry about that. :rotfl:

Well, you all get the idea.

nikimcbee 02-19-09 01:57 PM

There it is again in the ads!

http://www.muslima.com/?ovchn=GGL&ov...FQwxawodpycUzw

I think Neak is a subversive.:haha: (no pun intended)

Happy Times 02-19-09 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikimcbee
There it is again in the ads!

http://www.muslima.com/?ovchn=GGL&ov...FQwxawodpycUzw

I think Neak is a subversive.:haha: (no pun intended)

http://www.wikidoido.com/images/9/9b/Muslima.jpg

Zayphod 02-19-09 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Times
Quote:

Originally Posted by nikimcbee
There it is again in the ads!

http://www.muslima.com/?ovchn=GGL&ov...FQwxawodpycUzw

I think Neak is a subversive.:haha: (no pun intended)

http://www.wikidoido.com/images/9/9b/Muslima.jpg

That one in the upper right hand corner has those "come hither" eyes. :D
Same for the one in the lower right hand corner.

Middle left, don't know, could be hot, could be Batman.
How do you tell???? :o

Tribesman 02-19-09 04:12 PM

Nice link

Damn , so much uncovered flesh . OMG they don't even have their hair covered .

Do you think that Happy Times entered an eye fetish request to get those results from the website ? because some of dem wimmin is hot amd wanting it without a dowry?
Oh dem damn sinners :yeah:
,,,,Oh sorry they is muslims and muslims must fit the stereotype that is spread by small minded people ......
Then again , sorry to ctross reference to another "Happy Times has a mental sickness called phobia" topic .
But seriously I was at this wedding of an old friend , the ceromony went on .
The "christian" preacher said as part of the contractual arrangement that is marriage"the man shall not beat the woman without good reason" !!!!!!!!


..needless to say at that point , friendship or not I walked out of the ceremony .....though not laughing quite as loud as some of the other lads who had made the journey .
So would that be a stereotypical "christian" that I could focus a narrow minded bigotry on and hold up an example of what christians realy are like ?

BTW Happy Times I just noticed "Gates of Vienna ":haha:
Whatever next ? are you going to post some piece critical of Obama from the Church of Jesus Christ(christian)......(sorry about the brackets but they have to add them in case you thought it was a different Jesus from the racist Jesus they follow and got confused about Christianity).


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