Guys, guys, lets keep it civil, theres a lot of good discussion points and I'd hate to see the thread closed :cool:

I see one thing being bandied around here as the disproportionate use of force by Israel. One thing I learnt on basic training was that when engaging the enemy at a time of our own choosing, it is stupidity to engage with anything less than the full force available. The object is to kill the enemy, with as little loss of life to your own party as possible. Obviously the Israelis aren't going to use their (non-existent ;)) nukes, but in accordance with the military doctrine from which they grew, they are going after the enemy fighters with the full force available to them, whilst exposing their own troops to the minimum possible risk.

Like I said before (it was probably buried in my post) here we have those who believe peace can come from goodwill, and those who dont. we're not going to be able to change each others' minds, everyone knows that. However, it isn't a crime to try and open our minds, to support one party or other but be open to understanding the viewpoint of the other party!

Then we can generate discussion, not personal attacks.

Wow.. .. just... wow..

IMO this threat turned out worse than all the political ones that were before. Maybe just close it down.

Look, Mikhayl: Other than for example that Herring guy, I'm not a racist so I don't care from what country / race / religion / color someone is who said something, but instead what is said and what the facts are / my opinion on the issue is. So if a Jew is talking bull**** (I didn't really read any of the links, sorry), it won't make it any more valid for me. One thing the leftists always like to do is find an antisemitic Jew and then let rip their own antisemitism. If that makes any sense in their world, fine. I'm done here.

Thomen, don't be flabbergasted lol. I think it's quite hillarious to have the same people who find excuses for a yet another destructive and Jew-hating bunch lecture others on racism or the Nazis. Please let's not close this topic, it must remain open if only for the entertainment value.

And just for the record: While I see where Skybird is coming from with his views on Islam, I don't agree with them. Islam must not be violent if the people don't choose to be, so it's up to what the people are making of it. Only problem is when the radicals enjoy so much sympathy even in the West, how does anyone expect the Middle East to change?

Edited--

I'm born 1967. My mum is born 1948. My father is born 1944. The war ended 1945. My two grandfathers returned heavily crippled, suffering until their end, and all brothers being killed, one executed for treachery while not obeying to the SS. My father'S family got drivben out from some God-forsaken region in the Sudetenland. Take these numbers into account when expressing your racism - or better leave me alone with your poison.




Where have I mentioned the Gaza war since then? I will not discuss Gaza anymore until it is over.

Regarding the rest of your sermon, it simply is this: self-deceptive sermon. The rest of the post I deleted again. Why should I care. I know what knowledge base I base on, and it is not a small library I have read about it, and it were not short trips nor tourist programs I did back in the 90s. So don't give me BS and wishful slogans only. If you are fluent in German, I can send you a list with 30-40 titles you should read and that I have read myself, quiet some of them standard works, on quran and Hadith, their history of creation and editing, the different canons of the prohet tradition and manipulations of different versions of the Quran, on Islamic history, sociology, politics and wars, and impact of certain major linguistic changes in Arabic language, which often get underestimated. I can even recommend you some english books on the matter. And then - assuming you do not wipe all academic analysis off the table when it does not match your agenda and is not considered competent enough by you when not coming from uncritical islam-friendly sources - then we may talk again. Else it simply makes no sense to continue.

I was told on another thread to put fairy tales away and look at history. Well let me remind you of some history Mikhayle. As one Muslim, Ruslan Tokchukov warned his fellow Muslims. After analyzing world history, he noted the “brutal end” that befell “all those once-powerful enemies of the Jewish people: the Pharaohs of Egypt, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Roman Empire, the Inquisitor Spain, the Russian Tsarist Empire, the Nazi Reich.” He concludes his careful study by mentioning, “a part of the Christian Bible about God cursing those who curse the Jewish people, and the entire world history seems to confirm it.

Now, whether you are religious or not, whether you call it God’s law or the law of history, you have to agree that not one nation that persecuted the Judean people has escaped very bad consequences. I don’t think this law has an exception for the Arabs or any other Muslim.” Arab nations should pay attention to Ruslan’s warning and stop their fanatical hatred towards Israel otherwise, as history has proven, they will suffer severe consequences.

Some here seem to be on the wrong side, historically speaking of course all so called fairy tales put aside. :hmm:

This is IMHO one of the best posts yet in this thread, next after my initial post, which was meant as a humoristic post in the current sad situation.

Don't close the thread, just because there is disagreement. There always will be, just as there always will be chaos in the Middle East, because they cannot get along down there. And thus there will always be pro- and counter-. Support of this or that side. I see it all along all pages of this thread.

But I agree, trying to open the eyes for the undecided is no crime, as long as it is not written in a hatefull tone. So keep it sober.

Quote me correctly. I did not call you a stupid sleeping fool, but a sleeping fool. Actually I chosed that to describe you as somebody who does something foolish for not knowing it better - but not necessarily being a stupid dumbhead. That'S why I said you are sleeping and should wake up by getting better informed. If I wanted to use tough language against you, there would have been other choices.

And just for your materials and records: refering to political islam and Arab politics without knowing the religious basis of these makes no sense, zero, rien, nada. The difference we make between these, is not knpown in islamic thinking. ISLAM IS POLITICS, and is that before anything else. As long as you do not see that, you already have ended up in a dead end again. and you can't see that as long as you comfortably ignore the aspects you said you do not care for.

The difference you make leads to paradoxons like four weeks ago, when the berlin interior senator (SPD!) complained about Muslim communities in general for not cooperating with the law enforcement officials, and that such communities - all of them - do not show the smallest sign of cooperation in identyfying what you would call radical extremists hiding in their communities. Some weeks before that, from the close circle to Federal Interior ministre Schäuble, the same complaint was voiced, this time regarding not just berlin, but all germany. To you, this is somethign you cannot explain, becasue apparanetly moderate Muslim groups that gave a display of entusiasm about the state-Islam confernece Germqany has created and that meets regularly, also do not cooperate, and do nothing against radicals in their middle, and accept that they give them shelter and protection that way. But the truth is very simple, and a direct implication of muhammeddan superiority thinking that you find laid down in their scriptures: Law enforcement is not as important as protecting a Muslim, even if he violated the laws of the country he lives in. Being Muslim is more imprtant than wetsern law. Since long, and repeatedly on this board, I have attacked muslim communities for passively tolerating and not caring about "radicals" in their rows. But it is a logical consequences of the mindset taught by Islam. I would also refer again to the fact that slamic groups in the West demand special rights for themselves that no othger ethnic or religious minority in the is given, or even demanding. Such demands by muslims even surpass the rights coming by the special status of christian churches. The message behind it is simply this: Muslims and Islam are superior and must go before anything else. That is why islam will never stop pushing for more, and for getting all: for islam's self-perception, this is it's natural right, and it is unnatural for others wanting to resist it. rejecting Islam is something for which in the Islamic world there is no place.

And this, my dear sleeper, again are implications directly deriving from the quality of content of islamic tradition, thinking, and scripture, and the resulting social settings, mindsets, and views of the world and people. And that may be the reason why human right organisation have reported just weeks ago that 2008 has been the year of the greatest and most far-reaching christian and jewish persecutions in Islamic nations since the beginning of recordings of such statistics, and in no toher year as many Christians have been slain by muslim rioters. part of that is due to the massive progroms against Christians and Jews in Iraq. Part of it means: not all.

I do not wish your or anybody's interest in Islam to be nil - most people's interest is nil, they do not care, and that is why Islam can almost go on stampede and is able to push its interest everyhwere and even force officials and private persons into postures of obedience in advance. Becasue too many people do not care. i want people to see and understand that the cultural survival of europe is at stake - just this, nothing less.

In Nazi-Germany 70 years ago, most Germans were no Nazis, the majority wasnot convinced by hitler and Nazism. But - most of this majority group did not care, accepted to be frightened, claimed family and lacking intersts hindeing them to fight against Nazis. In the end it was a mixture of fear and cowardice, inability, lacking interest, wishful thinking that the fairy queen would solve it. We call such people in German "Mitläufer" (is that fellow traveller in English? I'm not sure, it feels wrong). I personally always thought that they do not have a right to complain if getting judged by the same standards like convinced and confessing Nazis got assessed by. Nor did their inactivity safe them from the harm that came over germany back then. In other words: they had and have to accept their share of responsibility. Just wishing Nazism away, was not good enough, and having wishes for the better alone are no excuse. The Nazis would not have been able to take all germany as hostage, if the majority would have fought against them. Phlegmatism and inactivity can be as harmful as committing the crime yourself. as Thomas Mann put it: "Tolerance of evil is a crime." If you do like that, then this saying matches spot on: fly with the crows, get shot with the crows.

later edit:
P.S. I realised that my second paragraph could be misunderstood. I thought about "moderate muslims" who by their passivity help "radical Muslims' " cause who hide in their middle. But the paragraph gives the impression I was thinking about european, natural Germans, and Muslims moving to Germany. I did not had that in mind. but now thinking about it, it would be a true statement, too. Both is of evil here: the lacking worrying of Germans, and Europeans, about the penetrating changes islam emigration to europe is silently and creepingly enforcing, and the passivity and phlegmatism of moderate muslims regarding the "radicals" in their middle. Desinterested Europeans assist in the spreading of Islam by their desinterest. And desinterested Muslims assist the radicals as well by their lacking interest.

Wow, why didnt anyone tell there's a fight in this thread? I feel like Tina Turner in Mad Max 3, watching the contestants fight in the Thunderdome! :88)

Translation: Hey, you are way out of line there.

Bye bye Onetoughherring. http://www.gangsterbb.net/emoticons/wave.gif

Dude.. you are way out of bounds.

Oh I get it. He threatens me with physical violence and I'm the bad guy? This besides spouting some kind of hate-speech against all muslims? Dudes, if you're going to ban me then ban me. If that's the case then I'll say one thing though, your officiating on this discussion board is way off the line.

Wow, OTH starts to remind me of myself some years back. Oooh the memories.. anyone still remember the 'chocolate starfish' picture I posted to Gizzmoe? Tee hee hee, still makes me giggle. :ping: