I agree with August, even if i'm on the other side so to speak

I think people get far too precious about the whole thing.

I may not be a christian, but lots of my closest friends are, and i find there's lots to admire in Christianity, as well as other religions. And of course the contribution of Christianity to the western cultural tradition cannot be denied (all though some Christians tend to believe it is the only contribution, which i think is somewhat self-aggrandizing as well as irritating)

Basically, I'm not offended by religious discussion, and I'm not even offended by explicit proselytizing, and equally the Christians that I know are not greatly troubled by my lack of Christianity.

But i think the same goes for the bus-campaign. Why get strung out about it? No one's forcing christians to renounce, and if Christians think they should have the right to hold "The end is nigh" placards and preach from soap boxes and display "the only way to life is through Jesus" signs (and they do and should have this right!) then the same goes for other points of view too.

I think that Skybird's belief that the best solution is for all religious beliefs to be private bubbles that never interact with those of another is overly precious. I find that i can very easily, and in a relaxed manner, cope with the intrusion of other people's religious beliefs into my life.

Religion is, whether you personally follow one or not, a major part of the culture on this planet of ours. Humans have been here for a long time, and religion seems to be as old as we are. And there is a long time for us yet, and religion will still be with us a long time in the future

I also don't concern myself with the thought that by putting Holy phrases and images onto mundane objects such as money they are in some way denigrating the divineness of the holy object - because i really don't care about such esoteric things, and as far as separation of church and state, i think this is well within acceptable parameters.

Joe,

have oyu seen the director's cut of "Kingdom of Heaven"? As confused as the commercial version was, as masterful is the director's cut. There is this scene at 0:53, where a Christian knight, member of the order of St. John (I think), philosophises like this:

"I put no stock in religion. I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called 'the will of God'. I've seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves. And goodness - what God desires - is here [points to the head] and here [points to the heart]. By what you decide to do every day , you will be a good man - or not. [smiles]"


Then the question is if we will be there for a long time in the future anymore.

I do differ between "spirituality" and "relgion". The first is the attitude of man that makes him yearning for answers to certain existential questions, to define himself to be in control of life to a certain degree, and to add meaning to life, cosmos, and his own existence and role in it. Without a certain minimum of such "security", life would be too hard to bear for many. By defining your place in cosmos, you define who you are yourself. This is what I call the spiritual attitude of man, and seen that way no person can avoid to be spiritual in this or that way - some are by turning towards religions, others by turning towards - for example - materialism to give them comfort from these urgent questions. As buddhism correctly says: one thing all humans have in common: they want to avoid pain, and seek for happiness. Just our definitions of what happiness is, or can be, are very different. Even Stalin and Hitler tried to be happy. Their definition of happiness as a way to answer existential questions, was horrific, however. they wanted to be safe and unhamred by seeking total, ultimate control over all others.

Religion, is just one answer to spirituality, and it is an answer that trades active serarching for something for a ritualised simulation of searching, or better: a simulation of having found the ltimate answers without the need to search in reality. Religion is a spirituality-simulator, so to speak. But both terms in reality are mutually exclusive. You do not search anymore, but claim or hope and assume to have arrived already. It is a ritual that replaces active searching by a set of ceremonial symbols. andn this is what makes it so very vulnerable to human abuse, powerpolitics and earthly craving for material possession and control over others, for it creates the elite that guards the rituals and rites that are being mistaken for the truth itself.

there are many possible ways a person can deal mwith the question of where we come from, where we go, how long we can stay, and why we are here. Hedonism and asketism, total altruism and brutal sefishness can be all strategies to end the pain from not having the answers, or chnage the search for them with the comfort of assuming one laready got them withiout needing to carry on. Religions come in many forms and variations, but they too are only some more strategies to face the final existential questions. and they are man-made strategies as well. they provide some people with the comfort to believe and even to feel certainty, that one's own existence has a meaning. The price for this comfort is - stagnation, and not asking wether that could be true, or not.

He who wants to discover the new world, needs to steer his ship awys from the land he calls home, and hands his ship and fate over to the unknown that is called the wide blue sea. Every one of us need to find his own answers to his questions. But where we trust in religions, it is as if we never left the harbour, and our ship still moored to the quay, and we read a fictional adventure story about foreign lands that we have never seen and do not know if they exist. It may be a good and entertaining read indeed, and hours pass quickly, that are our life's time. But the world we read about - still is just our fantasy.

Spiritual you only are where you reject religion's tempting promise for shortcuts and winning the comfort of security. Relgions are institutionalised organisations of rite and ceremonial surrogates replacing the reality you are surrounded by, and they assist the hierarchy of those controlling you to get your obedience and your material support. I often say keep thy religion to thyself - because only then you avoid your spirituality to become institutionalised religion. then both spirituality and relgion fall into just one - your own way to try findign the answers to those existential questions we all are haunted by. And then it may show to bring out the best of you - or not. It depends on your decisions and choices.

Are you sure? Food for thought for example here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4fQA9mt-Mg
and here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...ademy+chaplain
and many other examples possible. Google is your friend. Mobbying and threatening atheists is not uncommon in some parts of the country.

Absolutely! All discussion is good. What's bad is trivializing or dismissing the other guy's beliefs out of hand. I can't prove you're wrong, any more than you can prove you're right.

Or, to quote Robert A. Heinlein, "One man's religion is another man's belly-laugh."

Bet money on that!? Try that on my doorstep, and I'll send you away with a laugh, since I did not invite you. If later I open the door again and you're still there, you'd be in trouble.

You can talk to whom ever and about what ever you want, as long as it is consensual talking and the other agrees to engage with you. If you expect the other to listen to you although he does not wish to listen to you, or you talk and do not care for wether you are welcomed or not - that is when you have stepped over the line. If we would live side by side in two neighbouring appartem,ents and you play your radio so loud that I cannot live without being participating in your listenin habits, maybe even needing to give up my own music since I cannot hear it withiut turning my appartment into a disco, then you have gone too far.

So, you have freedom of speech. and others have the freedom to demand from you to pratcice it in a way that they must not be affected by you doing so. Your rights do not rank higher than theirs.

I agree with this. I don't understand why you have to pick on atheists all the time subman. Are we such a danger to your belief's?

My all time favorite killer plant movie was the killer tomatoes series hehehe.:rotfl:

But I love tomatoes very much... Great with bacon and mayo.

Is this some kind of threat? Don't worry stock boy. I probably couldn't find you hiding in your parents basement anyways... :lol: