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This is like if the germans said: we don't want you to show any more holocaust movies, because it hurts our feelings. If you show it, we will kill you! We will put your family in a gas chamber if you show this movie!!

I mean obviously this guy is a right-extreme and islam hater, but it is his right to make his movie, and to kill himself. If they kill him for that, they will prove that he was not so wrong. And thats probably what he wants. He seems to have a death wish, and he wants to become a martyr.

I would prefer if this thing would have never happened. But I want this movie to be shown and then forgotten.

Let's say I could watch it together with a muslim and afterwards we discuss it and come to the conclusion that it's anti-muslim propaganda, but also that the islamist threat is a fact, and we should do something about it together.

The same way I can go to an Auschwitz movie together with a yew and talk it over, and talk about lessons of the past.

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Who is under assault here?

how many muslim standing armies are occupying western countries?

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It might have something to do with the fact that you never hear any objection from the muslim community about terrorist violence.

there are objections, there are demonstrations, there are clerics and governments saying 9/11 was wrong. And the Iraqi Army that's trying to help the americans impose some kind of peace -- aren't they muslims? what about the pakistani, jordanian, or saudi intelligence services, passing info to help prevent terrorist attacks -- they're muslims too, right?

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It might have something to do with the fact that what muslims do in western countries would get a westerner killed in a heartbeat in an muslim country.

yes, and being in the wrong place at the wrong time gets innocent muslims killed in palestine, iraq, afghanistan, by western bombs or bullets. And it's not like there's mass demonstrations in the streets of Washington every time a wedding party gets atomized by a bomb.

It goes both ways.

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Originally Posted by caspofungin

how many muslim standing armies are occupying western countries?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,57507,00.html

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It goes both ways.

The most inaccurate statement of the Century. We wouldn't be anywhere if this didn't happen:

http://xrlq.com/Images/9-11%20%281%29.bmp

There would be no standing armies. There would be no violence. The world would have continued on as normal. The armies are their in defense, not to crush Islam.

-S

oh, that's right, a suspected "army" of 5000 sleeper agents is on the same scale as the IDF, coalition forces in Iraq or Afghanistan.

you're right, though, the most inaccurate statement of the century is

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We wouldn't be anywhere if this didn't happen

The assumption that before 9/11 all was well in the world, and that's the sole reason the world is the way it is today, is pretty funny.

So, the US army is in Iraq to defend against another 9/11? You believe that even after the Pentagon itself reported there ws no significant alqaeda presence in iraq before the invasion?

There would be no violence? Are you serious?

The world would have continued on as normal -- right, living happily and at peace in the us leaving everyone else to deal with the consequences of your foreign policies.

the world is a lot more complicated than you make out, subman. when i say "it goes both ways" i agree that islam has to "clean it's own house." But to lay all the blame on the muslims is, frankly, pretty ignorant of history.

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Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

I mean obviously this guy is a right-extreme and islam hater, but it is his right to make his movie, and to kill himself. If they kill him for that, they will prove that he was not so wrong. And thats probably what he wants. He seems to have a death wish, and he wants to become a martyr.

On the man:

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The 45-year-old Wilders' pushy behavior is exasperating to Dutch security officials and politicians alike. In the parliament, where he holds a seat with other members of his opposition group, the Partij voor de Vrijheid (PVV or Party for Freedom), he comes across as self-confident and defiant, dogmatic and unaffected. For months, various cabinet ministers, intelligence officials and police officers have urged him to abstain from his plan to release his film "Fitna" (Arabic for "strife") (more...), in which he hopes to settle scores (more...) with what he calls the "fascist Koran."
But the more he comes under public pressure, the calmer the man seems to become, as he lounges in his purple chair in the Dutch parliament, twisting his stout, angular face into a mischievous grimace. He behaves with the infallibility of a missionary convinced that he has been chosen to disseminate his dark visions. "Fitna is the last warning to the West. We can choose to pass freedom on to our children or allow our freedom to sink into a multicultural swamp," he says forebodingly.

Wilders is depriving himself of a personal life with his obsessive hatred of Islam. His bodyguards move him to a different location every night. He sees his wife once every week or two. In his windowless office in the Dutch parliament building in The Hague, the Binnenhof, he smiles derisively as he shows films depicting his image, underscored with the rattle of machine guns and the snarling voice of a hate-mongering imam calling for his death.

He derives obvious enjoyment from forcing his political foes into a dilemma. On the one hand, the elite in the Netherlands despise him for his demagogic manner, with which he indiscriminately associates all Muslims with terrorism. But banning his film? That would violate the unassailable value of freedom of expression. This conflict has led the Green Party's leader in the Dutch parliament to grudgingly support the notion that the government should pay the cost of security for the public performance of his film.

He is only too pleased to watch intellectuals -- the people he routinely castigates as do-gooders and cultural relativists -- squirm. Nevertheless, his poll ratings are climbing. If the country were to hold elections next Sunday, his PVV, which currently holds nine seats in the Second Chamber, or lower house of parliament, would likely double its standing. His tirades against Moroccan adolescents jostling through pedestrian zones strike a chord with ordinary Dutch voters.

But political scientists also pay tribute to him occasionally, as they did a year ago when he pertly asked two newly sworn-in state ministers which state they actually served. Was it the Dutch state, he wanted to know, or the Turkish or Moroccan state, of which they were also citizens?
"Islam Will Not Be Reformed for 1,000 Years"

Everyone in the Netherlands has an opinion about Wilders, and yet little is known about him as a person. A recently published biography attempts to provide an initial impression of the origins of Wilders' rage against Islam. He was born in the city of Venlo, on the German border. He was a latecomer, and his mother spoiled him to no end. His father, the head of research at Océ, a manufacturer of copying machines, had hidden from the Nazis in World War II. Forty years later, he still refused to cross the bridges over the Meuse River to neighboring Germany. This strict devotion to principle seems to have made an impression on the young Geert. Referring to his military service, he says: "I too was happy not to have to share a tent with the Germans during joint maneuvers."His goal after finishing school was to see the world. But he lacked the money to get to Australia, his preferred destination, so he went to Israel instead. Wilders, who speculates that some of his ancestors were Jewish, felt completely at home upon his arrival in Israel. "It felt like I had been there before," he says. He supported himself by working long hours in a bread factory, and he traveled extensively in the surrounding Arab countries. The Israelis, he felt, were not as pigheaded as the Arabs. "But when the Egyptians talked about Israel, you could see the hatred in their eyes."

He visited Muslim countries again and again. Even in the late 1990s, he flew to Iran, Syria and Jordan. To this day, he waxes poetic over these "magnificent countries," but then he adds: "It's a real shame that these places are so chaotic." Wilders is very familiar with the Arab world, the same world where he is now causing such a commotion. It is short-sighted to describe him as ignorant.

By the same token, he is not a dull racist and xenophobe, like his right-wing populist counterparts in France, Belgium and Germany. He wants to ban the Koran, the burka and the construction of new mosques. But he also wants to prevent "gays from being beaten up on our streets by Muslim youth." He is married to a Hungarian woman, a former diplomat who works for a multinational US corporation today.
The roots of his frustration with the political and social caste are much easier to uncover. Wilders became acquainted with the soft lap of the welfare state, complete with its proliferating system of subsidies and its corruption, when he worked for the Dutch social insurance agency. In 1990 he joined the People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD), which purported to fight precisely that tangled social network. Frits Bolkestein, the party's charismatic leader, became his mentor and discovered Wilders' talent for writing speeches.
Wilders, the pupil, also shared his new teacher's sharp criticism of Muslim immigrants.
When Wilders entered the city council of Utrecht in 1996, where he represented the VVD, he lived in the city's Kanaleilanden neighborhood. As a resident, he had a firsthand view of the gradual demise of what had been a middle-class residential neighborhood. While the Muslim immigrants became radicalized in their faith, Wilders became equally radicalized in his conviction that Islam is backward and "will not be reformed in 1,000 years." People who know him remember that he used to complain about not feeling safe to walk in the streets of Kanaleilanden. Some conjecture that it was at that time that his rage against Islam was truly inflamed.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...543627,00.html

Of course the author of that eassay does not hide his opinion that since Wilders was pointing fingers mercilessly at the obvious contradiction on Islam between the claimed position of peacefulness - that time and again gives shelter to the obvious motivation from Islam for violence and aggression - it all is "hate-speech."

I withhold any final opinion of mine ofn the person, for I do not know eniough aboiut him, and his other political views. Regarding the issues being dicussed here, I refuse to attack him on what he did. I would have done it slightly different, but okay. He seem to think that subtlety will not reach anything, and has totally failed us for the past 40 years. And that is an opinion i share by 100%.

I said in the other thread that I had launched myself that I do not consider the conetent of the movie to be the interesting thing anyway, but the bahvior he was able to cause and trigger from the West. And that the West fails him so completely and so bitterly defend it's worst enemy instead, is a very strong and revealing message of failure and deception - nd it does not light my optimism.

Wishful thinking never creates favourable realities - it destroys them instead.

An interesting detail is that my father, who is usually very right extreme and also extremely anti-islamic in his views, feels provoked by the movie (he said that if Wilders will be killed than he deserved it *cough*), while I, who is usually the liberal, would fight for it to be shown, no matter how it provokes muslims.

It was the same with the mohammed carricatures.

I don't know if this contributes anything to the discussion, but I find it a surprising facts. Sometimes I dont understand my dad, he wants things as: putting immigrants to prison camps, euthanasia of handicapped babies, commending people who kill in self defense, eye for an eye sentences, branding HIV positives with an "AIDS" tatoos .. you get the picture. He is also one of those who would love to see all turks thrown out of Germany. Well fortunately no one listens to him ;)

Now if there was just some way to watch that f_cking movie, at the moment all links are dead. I am sure the flick is not even worth it, but now everyone wants to see.

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Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

wow, you could be describing one of my German uncles. Your family name isn't Haas or Karl by any chance is it? ;)

No. The problem with my dad is he just talks too much when he sits in front of the TV. Outside of politics he is a really nice guy.

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Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

No. The problem with my dad is he just talks too much when he sits in front of the TV. Outside of politics he is a really nice guy.

Again, just like my uncles. :D

*Laughs*. I just hope I am not going to be like that when I am older.

So you're half german?

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Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

*Laughs*. I just hope I am not going to be like that when I am older.

So you're half german?

Yep. My Mom grew up in a little farming town southeast of Frankfurt.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Altenb...i=map&ct=image

This stuff just never ends.:roll: Like I said before, I don't mind people respecting there own believes as long as they don't force it down on me. I don't force my ideals on them. They want to marry old men to kids, that there ideals not mine. We consider that wrong but thats our ideals not theres. We have no right to tell them how to live as they have no right to tell us how to live. So if they come here they have to respect our lifestyles and if we go there we have to respect theres. IF we don't like it stay home.

Final:up:

Anyhow our western government are wimps. They change the laws accordingly to those who have the bigger http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/f...vatar_6439.gif bribes.

Update,
If you want to still watch that film you have to google search it or through BT site.

Thanks for the tip WH. Torrent works great.

There is also talk of another movie: "Islam: What the West Needs to Know"

has anyone seen that too?

Of course I would also like to see the propaganda movies which explain the view islamic of the west. Can anyone recommend something? What was the name again of that turkish movie they wanted to prohibit some time ago? I think it was "Valley of the Wolves".

What? The film is just 15 minutes long :hmm: ?