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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7310439.stm

Quote:

The US hosting service, Network Solutions, said it was investigating complaints that it may have breached guidelines on hate language.
Dutch politician Geert Wilders says the 15-minute film describes Islam as "the enemy of freedom".
The planned release has sparked angry protests in many Muslim countries.
The Dutch government has disassociated itself from Mr Wilders' views, but there are fears the film will spark protests similar to those that followed the publication in Denmark two years ago of cartoons seen as offensive to Muslims.
The film has already been condemned by several Muslim countries, including Iran and Pakistan.
Hate messages
Mr Wilders' film is entitled Fitna, an Arabic word used to describe strife or discord, usually religious.
Mr Wilders wrote a commentary in a Dutch newspaper on Saturday.
"The film is not so much about Muslims as about the Koran and Islam. The Islamic ideology has as its utmost goal the destruction of what is most dear to us, our freedom," he wrote in De Volkskrant.

"Fitna is the last warning for the West. The fight for freedom has only just begun," he said.
He had been using Network Solutions to promote the film.
But on Sunday, Network Solutions said it had received a number of complaints that were under investigation.
It said the site was suspended until it was established whether the content of the site violated Network Solutions' terms of acceptable use.
They include "material that is obscene, defamatory, libellous, unlawful, harassing, abusive... hate propaganda" and "profane, indecent or otherwise objectionable material of any kind or nature".
Mr Wilders has had police protection since Dutch director Theo van Gogh was killed by a radical Islamist in 2004.

Bravo. Yelling the loudest once again pays off and gets you the constitutional protection for free speech getting cancelled. Today is a great win for Islam. Europe, and the fearful West in general, as usual will be too stupid to see, and will celebrate it's own freedoms and laws being turned against it in order to finally overthrow them and what they stand for. Stupid idiots.

But there will be the justice of karma: In the end, europe will not escape to get what it deserves by it's behavior, and if it gives up its freedoms so willingly - it will get to be freed of these freedoms indeed, well-deserved. If you cannot value freedom, you do not deserve freedom. No right then to complain about freedom being taken away from you.

At least we seem to know now that the film does exist for real.

P.S.,

PD, I'm sitting at it. Patience, please.

Quote:

It not about hate, its about standing up for our culture, heritage and freedoms. Some people still give value to these things.

Or at least try to... I don't give in to Muslims, or Buddhists, or Hindus or Mormons for that matter... Not me brother...

Nor do I go out of my way to force my views, social or otherwise, on anyone. Live and let live, each will meet his/her Maker one on one someday...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7310439.stm
Bravo. Yelling the loudest once again pays off and gets you the constitutional protection for free speech getting cancelled. Today is a great win for Islam. Europe, and the fearful West in general, as usual will be too stupid to see, and will celebrate it's own freedoms and laws being turned against it in order to finally overthrow them and what they stand for. Stupid idiots.

But there will be the justice of karma: In the end, europe will not escape to get what it deserves by it's behavior, and if it gives up its freedoms so willingly - it will get to be freed of these freedoms indeed, well-deserved. If you cannot value freedom, you do not deserve freedom. No right then to complain about freedom being taken away from you.

At least we seem to know now that the film does exist for real.

P.S.,

PD, I'm sitting at it. Patience, please.

I think it's even worse than a victory for Islam, it's also a victory for people like Wilders and all his counterparts in other countries. Now they can take the pose of the victims and get sympathy for their overall stinky ideas.
The whole thing is so stupid, I can't believe it.

Nice way to turn the thing by 180°. But I do not know Wilders and his political goals, and I say it is unimportant what the film contains and says. That it is neither Chrstianity, judaism, buddhism, hinduism, Atheism, and other religious -ism, nor politcal left, centre, right parties being so successful to make the West bendind over to willing to get spanked again, and that it is always Islam taking this course, unhindered from the socalled moderates - this is the one point. the other point is that it has been successfully demonstrated that by intimidation and threat you can very easily make the West to surrender it's most precious constitutional rights and freedoms, and effectively capitulate to the violent dogma of the attacker. I wonder why we are so proud that our ancestor have suffered and fought so long and misrableyto gain these rights against bitter opression from medieval church and political nationalism - when we throw them out of the window so happily just because some little nothing from the stoneage yells "Give up your freedom and become like me, or I will not like you anymore!"

As it is said: if you want to stop a huge crowd and make them flee or surrender - just block the road with four or five thugs in black shirts who put on their leather gloves pointedly.

But why runnign away, when one can fight and defeat them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

I was saying that if the governments in charge are being weak on that sort of problem with islamists, they give room to our own extremists.

I have said this also, if goverments wont step up, the violent conflict will start at some point.
But probably it will still start in the near future anyway, no way to stop anymore.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe....ap/index.html

It's total hypocrisy. And moreover, if Network Solutions gives in, it will simply set a precedent and open the doors to other groups to demand the same treatment if they feel they been maligned or mistreated.

BTW, I for one WILL watch it if it's ever released. Then I will make up MY OWN MIND as to the "truthfulness" it contains.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeepIron

BTW, I for one WILL watch it if it's ever released. Then I will make up MY OWN MIND as to the "truthfulness" it contains.

Excatly!:up:

Quoting from BBC:

Quote:

The planned release has sparked angry protests in many Muslim countries.

A. Then ban the showing of the film in YOUR COUNTRY.
B. If Muslims are trying to say "they are not the enemies of freedom", then prove it and stop killing those who exercise their free rights.

Quote:

It said the site was suspended until it was established whether the content of the site violated Network Solutions' terms of acceptable use.
They include "material that is obscene, defamatory, libellous, unlawful, harassing, abusive... hate propaganda" and "profane, indecent or otherwise objectionable material of any kind or nature".

So now, Network Solutions becomes the determining agent of what content is right and what is wrong?

If so, and they pull the site, then I suggest we start a campaign that forces ALL porn sites hosted by NS to be shutdown. Why? Because porn is offensive...

Demands for TV station closure

http://www.cbc.ca/arts/tv/story/2008...-cartoons.html

Found this on CBC a while ago - thought it might be relevant here. I personally find this even more troubling than violent Islamic protests against offences to their own religion - they have no right to protest against even that, IMO, but this doesn't even affect their religion. They just want to ban other people from watching because it is in opposition with their beliefs - very concerning but not at all surprising, I guess. Ultra conservative Christians appear to be involved this time too.

@ Skybird - you appear to have already addressed this earlier, and I usually don't get involved in these types of discussions, but I wanted to ask you opinion in regards to something you and Periscopedepth were discussing on page 3:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

If there are moderates indeed, I drmand them not to remain silent, but to stand up and fight against the evil within their muslim community, rip many pages out of the Quran, make certain primnciples regarding ethics and values obligatory and madatory and integrated part of Islam'S message - which would mean to stop Islam being Islam, of course. As long as they do not do that, Islam in egenral bcomes stronger by the number of heads in their families, and thus I need to see them as neither supportive, nor true in saying they want to respect those parts of our values they have accepted from Western culture (at least they say). some things do not go together. What is a liberal Nazi? A democratic stalinist? A humanistic Muslim? you eithersupoort Islam, or you don'T, just ripping it apart and picking what you like, and refuse the others content - that is not possible in Islam. You should have understood by my earlier replies that Muhammad wanted to prevent especially this falling apart, and falling into subgroups, and islam'S laws reflect that. the main factor of power and strength in Islam is it's monolithic unity - and this is not design by random chance, but was muhammad's intention. Unity mans strength, strength means to enforce unity, no matter how, no matter the cost. That is why apostcy is under thread of death penalty. Once Islam owes you, it owes you forever. Once a member of the honourable family, you leave it only throgh death. Once in the infnary trench, you either fight or get court-martialed and executed. It'S the same pattern and the same intention in all three examples: strength by (totalitarian) unity, unity by strength.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

If you hold people to a religious standard that is absolutely stringent, in fact the same standard as the extremists do, what are you accomplishing? That is what you seem to do when you say true Muslims are all extremists. As it stands now perhaps, but if the western world gives them that definition, does that not alienate the moderates? We HAVE to give the moderates a way to be accepted without them having to change the word of god in the face of their conservative enemies. We put the moderates between a rock and a hard place when using terms like Islamo facism. It simply fuels the argument that their conservative enemies make.

The trouble with saying that not everyone who thinks they are Muslim is Muslim is a big one. Largely because the process of converting to Islam is more or less THINKING of yourself as a Muslim and uttering a few words. Labels become very important here. Those who label themselves as Muslims and are in fact "moderate Muslims", not "true" Muslims by your definition become become rather angry when you assault their spiritual identity, as anyone would. And again, alienating the moderates just isn't a good idea. Just gives more credibility to the conservatives. I mean, great, you've made a fine technical point by stating that most who identify themselves as Muslims and Christians are not technically because of their religious texts. But it doesn't accomplish anything. Those religious texts are thousands of years old, and robbing someone of their identity because they don't follow them to a T is just counterproductive.

I don't think this is exactly what PeriscopeDepth was saying, but should we encourage 'moderate' muslims to dissect violent parts of their religion and basically make it into something technically (but presumably illegitimately so in the eyes of true islam) peaceful? I know that if they did so, the product would no linger be something which could truly be called islam, as I accept your (Skybird) thesis that Islam is an ideology which is rooted in violence and crushing control of its subjects - I am not arguing that Islam can legitimately be made peaceful. I am also not arguing that this is the case in western society right now - for every 'moderate' muslim that urges restraint from violence their appear to be thousands screaming for our blood (I remember a story on CBC once about a 'moderate' muslim in Ontario(?) who was publicly urging Islamic moderation, but had to go into hiding because of the overwhelming surge of threats from other muslims against him, his wife and children because of his anti-violent message (or something close to that - I don't know where the story is now).

Basically, what I asking is should we try to encourage a watered-down, illegitimate, fake, and peaceful version of islam? As you have argued, such a vision of Islam would no longer be true to the Koran, but I personally don't care if muslims truly follow their faith or not - someone can believe in the great green flying spaghetti monster for all I care, as long as they are not trying to force me to accept it or using it as a launching pad from which to make threats to spill my blood. Or is this even possible? And if it is, how should we go about it? And if not - well, what exactly should western society do, other than refusing to given in to selfish islamic demands everytime those demands are trust in its face?

BTW - one last note; it is interesting that pretty much the only person I have ever known who has spoken out against islam was an arab student from Pakistan who isn't religious himself - he said in one of our classes that he's personally heard (on several occasions) muslims sitting around just laughing at Canadians for accepting everything they demand, and declaring that it is only a matter of time until Canadian society falls apart (I'm not making this up, and I don't think he was either) - his point was that they were not integrating into Canadian society after moving here as he believed they should. He also said that islam is not interested in tolerating the beliefs of others, and there was no way that islam would ever accept equality for women in any form (our topic for that week in legal philosophy). Our professor (who is very liberal), looked frightened and asked him to stop.

:-?

Forgive me if this has been addressed before - I just feel more and more afraid when I see news reports with constant islamic demands, threats, and riots directed at various western societies and when most people around here (not on this forum - in RL) appear to be pretending it is not happening or look frightened when someone tries to talk about it, or state that the majority or mulsims encourage peace and integration while only a handful of non-conforming ones cause trouble (when it always seems to be the other way around to me). I just don't know what to do anymore.

:-?

Quote:

I just don't know what to do anymore.

You are not alone in that feeling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

Actually I didn't mean to turn anything, just saying that it's 2 birds hit with one stone. Giving away freedom of speech is unacceptable and I felt sorry for the hosts when I saw this morning that the website was down, with some gibberish about complaints and bla bla bla. I sure agree about people being too "soft" when it comes to their rights, and that's not only on the islam matter.
I was saying that if the governments in charge are being weak on that sort of problem with islamists, they give room to our own extremists.

Ah, that clears it up a bit - I see where you were aiming at. I agree, indeed often say that over here with regard to governmental policies failing and the right wing becoming stronger especially in Eastgerman areas.

AG124,

as I said a long reply to PD got lost yesterday before I could post it, but I am sitting at doing a second, and thorough reply. I apologize in advance for its length, but so far this discussion here keeps to be civil and fair, and PD showed good will to understand me and I intend to honour that on equal terms and show as much good will to make clear where I come from and why, in reply to the points in his last posting. I also enjoy him and me agreeing on some and disagreeing on other things without him or me becoming angry at each other - that's really good, and fair doing.

I also will try hard to keep the number of typos low. :lol:

If you could have some patience, you maybe get your answer in my reply to PD. Else, ask again then. ;)

Let'S keep this dicussion as civil as it has run so far , guys :up: , then this could continue as a really good thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeepIron

BTW, I for one WILL watch it if it's ever released. Then I will make up MY OWN MIND as to the "truthfulness" it contains.

Me to, but as I alraedy said I do not consider the content of the movie to be the deciding issue at all. The reaction he managed to cause is the really important issue. I prefer free speech - even when producing some foul results - to even just partial censorship : where there is honey, you have to deal with the bees, so it goes. the only exception I am willing to make is Nazi propaganda - due to 6 million Jews killed in the holocaust and millions more killed in Europe during WWII being a convincing and proven historical argument why there is no argument left to allow Nazi propaganda.

At least that is the legal situation in germany.

@ Skybird - I am a very patient person.:) I remember you mentioning the error on page 3 and losing a post; I look forward to reading it in its completed form,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeepIron

BTW, I for one WILL watch it if it's ever released. Then I will make up MY OWN MIND as to the "truthfulness" it contains.

Me to, but as I alraedy said I do not consider the content of the movie to be the deciding issue at all. The reaction he managed to cause is the really important issue. I prefer free speech even producing some foul results to censorship - where there is honey, you have to deal with the bees. the only exception I am willing to make is Nazi propaganda - due to 6 million Jews killed in the holocaust and millions more killed in Europe during WWII being a convincing and proven historical argument why there is no argument left to allow it.

at least that is the legal situation in germany.

Well if someone is preaching genocide it probably is against the law in any western country. The question is why are the Islamist allowed to continue theirs? :hmm:

Opinions on this film? I thought it was rather balanced at gives a good picture of the threat.