We already have the 4th Reich it's called the EU. :damn:

No I don't, and why are you asking me that question?! But if I have to chose between the Kaiser and Germany as it is today, guess what I prefer!

Now you should better try to answer my question what the world will lose if we leave prussian tradition in its grave.

go away .. :nope:

You better bone up reading there documents or stick around and watch all unfold in 30 odd years time. ;)

I was just trying to understand your objections to the IC and that is the argument you seem to be making.

As skybird said, germans don't "admire" the military. In fact some right out hate it. Now in some ways this can be seen as irrational and neurotic. But please try to imagine what a large, prosperous, respected nation Germany could have been without the militarism. Today things look pretty bright again for Germany, but don't forget what several generations had to go through during the 20th century. So it's not just for irrational self-loathing that people put the blame on the Kaiser, the Wehrmacht and all that, it is an objective experience.

As I allready said above, I think the problem with the military is something not connected to the normal german. The media and certain politicians have a problem with the military. The average german mostly is simply indifferent.
Maybe 20 years ago a majority was anti-military but now most people just don't care.
I suppose overall the popular opinion about the military is not much different to other european countries, those "ghost from the past" debates are mostly intellectual.

People always see the militarism of Prussia - and ntzhis alone. but I am a fan of some Prussian virtues. Precision. desiciple, self-disipline, self-modesty. Not complaing so much, but doing it. Politeness. These are also Prussian values. and I think they are in desperate need in public schools. Prussia often is seen as a negative stereotype, but in fact it is a complex matter, I learned when reading about it. To me it is a little bit like with a knife: a moron will use it to stab people from behind, a surgeon will use it to safe life. And all the figures of the present that I respect or maybe even admire a bit, have some more or less Prussian values in common in their personal way of living, and acting. Like Sparta for a long time was seen as too positive, Prussia is too often seen as too negative. Another fallout from the Nazi time.

Hitler and gang certainly were one of a kind, but one should not forget that beyodn that part of history, Germany has not been any special case regarding nationalism, imperial cult, imperialism. The Brits did it. the French. and earlier, the Austrians, the Spanish., the italians, the Portuguese, the dutch. compare to some of these, the imperial Germany sought "it's place at the sun" in colonies too, but by far not that successful than for example the British. Of course that was not because of lacking desire for more, but because of limited ability or ressources or smaller chances. The message is: all european nations acted according to the goals of the imperialistic era, and the nationalism of nations in the 4-5 centuries before, last but not least Napoleon, and the British empire rising. Militarily, napoleons strategic genius and agility is to be admired, but politically he was a catastrophe for the continent.

The thread is off-topic now, but nobody should take offense. It is reasonable in tone, and most interesting, so: continue! :up: