Ruhig Männer, ruhig, das ist noch gar nichts ...

The discussion has now reached such a deep level a serious SHIII forum does not deserve. At this point it is absolutely senseless to continue this thread.
We all know what Danlisa intended to tell us, it was written very clearly and needs not to be discussed any more.
But (@Danlisa) there is no need to shout, shouting is always a sign of weakness.

Onlifecrisis position is clear too. He wanted to give the community another goodie.
But following the rules of this forum he ceased working on this project.
And mind, this project did not adress ann issue GWX is dealing with.
The GWXPeri view is very close to stock.

Lets wait and see until GWX 1.04 will be released, the GWX Team retires and dissolves. In fact I regret that, but we have to accept !!!
SHIII will still be played after this event. In my opinion a mod that is finished does no more belong to the modders but to the Community.

Every mod does things that have been done by other mods in a similar or even equal way. The GWX Team has not invented modding and for shure they altered files and elements that have been changed before by other mods ore use adjustments or code that may even have been used (invented) before by other modders.
Did they ask anybody for allowance. I presume no, they did not. Why should they ?

Finally I apologize for my poor english because I am an Austrian guy.

@Onelifecrisis
To return to the initial theme, how could you manage to duplicate the auto/manual swith/knob in the peri screen and make it work?

I asked Sale and he said he gave up, its impossible.

Okie.. now this thread has devolved to a whooole new level: Sh*t... :yep:

Seems to me that onelifecrisis has been looking for a way around dealing with us directly.

Concerning OLC's problem with this decision... it can be viewed as someone that kicks you on one day... and expects someone to be okay with that on the next day. This kind of poop just doesn't float in real life... nor should it on a public forum.

I think that those who know me... also know that an apology when it is called for... does not break my jaw. When I am wrong... I am usually quite wrong. I have my pride, as we all do, but I try like hell to not put 'my pride' first. The team and the project come first... in that order.

We also do everything that we can in terms of the Subsim community's interest.
It would be shocking to many of you just how much work our guys have done in the background without any expectation of fanfare... to ensure the success of others hopes and aims... even if the material was completely unrelated to GWX interests. It is very likely you will never know the entirety of this story... and we are happy to leave it as such.

No apology is called for here. It has always been customary to ask permission prior to using the work of others. The entire concept of asking for permission is pointless without the possibility of refusal. This is part of what helps keep this forum calm on most days.

That is until some self-serving person without care or concern for others work cannot see past his/her own selfishness and chooses to disregard convention.

What really amazes me is the sense of ENTITLEMENT and EXPECTATION that new/other modders have when it comes to work that WE/GWX devs have done. The LEAST other modders can do is treat the work and the individuals who have
released/produced that work with a little respect. They don't have to like us, and we don't have to like them, to give and get permissions.

I cannot recall ever before having played the "Project Manager disgression" note at Subsim for the simple reason that it can be viewed as unreasonable, arrogant, egotistical etc. However, as long as I am... and no matter how tired I may be... I REFUSE to be an empty suit.

I will always try to do the right thing as I see it... and in so doing I will continue to collect accusations of being egotistical, snobbish, further threats of violence, and further accusations of being a Nazi sympathizer etc etc etc.

Doing 'the right thing' and/or taking a hard line on occasion is certainly not the easy way to deal with things. However, we have done so on a number of occasions and we will continue to do so.

Whether it is reasonable for me to feel this way or not... I feel that it is my responsibility to be a 'gate-keeper' and to protect the work, dev team and contributor personal wishes concerning permissions for files they've modified that are included in GWX, and the integrity of the project as a whole. If you don't
like this... tough noogies.

I also have no doubt that if I am being a jerk... that the GWX crew will say so. I also have no doubt, that my continued existence as the 'project manager' remains in the hands this team. Indeed this matter has always been in their hands.

Still, after TWO YEARS of working with this project and dev teamers... I consider them my friends in a very real sense... and God help those that screw with my friends... my crew. Those people can GO TO HELL!

Without these guys... the GWX ship sinks.

For those who feel that I'm the bastard of the week... reread my posts and messages on this thread, and until slapped by onelifecrisis, you will likely find them quite dry and to the point... an attempt to gather information and to be helpful to OLC regardless of my personal feelings.

We have not bullied anyone. We simply will not have our arms twisted to meet the expectations of a grand-stander.

People will bitch and whine no matter what we do... and when we do not fall in line with their expected decisions or conditions... they scream bloody murder. Today is no different in that respect. Many just want their candy NOW and without regard to where it comes from. They just stick their grubby little hands out and say, "GIMMEE GIMMEE GIMMEE!" Nothing will change that... but we will stand in
the way of cavalier attitudes and the sort of contempt that onlifecrisis is showing here.

Come what may.

This is indeed not a Ubisoft/modder ownership matter like OLC said. It is rules like this that kill the motivation of future and veteran modders alike.

GWX has done some great work for SH3 and I thank them for it, but lets face it. I don't think that there's much more 'stock-material' left in SH3 to mod that hasn't been modded by GWX or any other supermod for that matter.

As a modder, you will automatically start with the best files, whether they were previousely modded or not is insignificant ! Let's start acting as a community make this sim better, get off our high horses and give credit to the people that worked on the files. WTF more does that modder want ? ??? a medal ??? an approval from the queen ?

In my case, I am absolutely not the supermodder, nor do I have the skills to do the things like for example DivinDuck, Iambecomelife or Racerboy do. But I have a skill all of us modders should have.

TOLERANCE.

I am proud that someone uses my mod or file as a base for their own work. Even if they don't ask permission. As long as credit is given... what's the big deal ?

Get rid of stupid rules, and all your lives will become much easier.

Just my 2 cents

The problem you describe Dertien, does not arise when someone wishes to mod stock SH3 or even to create a mod for GWX... The problem arises when you go straight to GWX and use it as your "supply depot." When this occurs, you should ask permission.

There are very good reasons for this that I posted earlier... most importantly the preservation of credits belonging to previous contributors.

They have earned the right for their names and mention of their contributions to be carried forward.

It is a matter of common decency. Nothing more than this was expected from OLC.

Without the posted guidelines, we have nothing better than anarchy here... and to hell with that.

To protect the freedom of modding and to stand against the free-for-all scrum that this forum could turn into... you must take in the whole picture.

Those modders did not get paid for the work they so unselfishly gave... they cannot get the time in life back that they spent to make the simulation better.

We ALL OWE them the recognition that they deserve... a few simple words in an included readme.

Anything less is pure and simple lazyness and greed.

This whole damned thing remembers me on the GWX-Dev Team issues with the LivingSH3 Autor (AASelle)...caused by the Radio-Messages file (The reason for me in those days to avoid the german ubi forum til now).

Then the rude words to Carotio cause he has used GWX Files as basefiles of his mod (although things there are a bit different, cause he never asked for permission...so I can understand it).

But I don´t/won´t/can´t understand the rude words against OLC...He has asked for permission (ok a little late but he has, and he has done it before releasing his mod).

And BTW noone is perfect and free from making mistakes (and OLC made no mistake...would has been one if he would has released his mod without asking for permission, but how already said, he has asked)

The next point is that such events will hit the community, and will destroy it too, maybe more early or maybe later...but some talented modders will think twice before doing something for the community or maybe they also leave this place too.

Hey,
when the permission thingy showed up, I didn't think this was so important to some people, and I still don't get it, credits should be enough, I actually did the same as OLC: ask for permission late, but just got a rude: "shove off"

Anyway, I only post because my name was mentioned.
I don't want to contribute to this discussion any further!

I only want to say this:
I think we all can agree that we disagree about this issue!

I think a few people are reading these posts far too swiftly.

If anyone has been rude, it has been onelifecrisis.

It wasn't me that began posting rudely... and certainly not danlisa. OLC edited danlisa's post to pervert its meaning.

Only a wooden person would be okay with that.

People are screaming and crying at US because they dont get something that ONELIFECRISIS promised before even asking the permission?

Soooo, how about stop crying and lynch the right guy? http://www.gamestar.hu/forum/html/emoticons/szm.gif

ok sorry...then I can´t understand the words against you in those days neither

Agreed. I don't want to contribute to this discussion any further too, cause I have got to work right now. Damned late shift.

But all in all better to work then to see how some people act with harsh, rude words...Perhaps better taking a flamethrower and make a barbecue

We have already run all over this ground!

It is because of events like this that the recommended modding guidelines were established in the first place.

People would be WELL ADVISED to read them... they are STICKIED in the mods forums here for all to see!

Those guidelines serve ALL! They do not serve only GWX aims or matters. Like ANYONE ELSE we too ask for permission to use ANY externally built mod great or small!!! When we do ask... we do not expect EXPECT that permission will always be obtained!

We are talking of very simple matters that pertain to COMMON DECENCY and MUTUAL RESPECT!!!

Ignore those guidelines at your peril... and do not be surprised to meet resistance if you do ignore them.

@ WOD

There is a long post history between Carotio & GWX/GW.

Please do not presume that one sentence is the complete story.

@ ALL

This matter of permissions & credit has been discussed and a common ground has been reached. See this thread - http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=115983

If these guidelines are not to your liking, take it up with the management.

The guides in the sticky were discussed by the community to avoid such instances as this, which starting happening too frequently.

If modders (future/present) do not follow these guidelines then what's the point in any of us continuing?

One life crises, is a hell of a guy,
I hope everyone here can have
a grown atitutude and just treat
this carefuly...

I is not a bad Dude, and he is not
with rong intentions, this is not
very fair as far as I can see!

He allways asked me permision
to use any files of mine!

I think what goes here is that he gets so excitated when creating
something that he forgot to ask this permision, but
I also think that we should suporte him as a modder and
as a fellow Community user...


Just mi thoughts and opinion on this all isue!

JCWolf, I hold you in very high regard... and you've been a friend to me for a very long time. I would defend you still today. However, I must say that you are seeing only a small part of the picture here.

OLC, has really stepped in the poop... and is going to have to take those shoes off before he steps back into the kitchen.