My problem is still with the enemy eyesight. I have no problems in 1940 dodging DDs at 30 meters. I read the fabulous GWX manual and followed the instructions which are sound enough. I also have a German copy of the U-boat Commander's Handbook and must've read it ten times by now. I follow the instructions there to the letter as well, but I really still have problems with entering convoys at night and shadowing convoys in daylight. Maybe someone could help me with that :)

To get back to my AOTD experiences: In that sim it was easy entering convoys at night at high speeds and getting out just as fast. I was shadowing the perimeter and monitoring the escort search pattern, and when there was a gap I charged through, plowed through the first line, hit the inner ships and was out the other side before anyone knew what had happened. That worked best with overcast skys but also when the sea was calm, the sky was clear and I could see for 10 kilometers. In GWX I don't get that to work. I've read many threads here telling me that it's possible. But during daylight the escorts often spot me before way I spot them, and going faster than slow ahead will draw their attention quite quickly even at night. At that speed I cannot keep pace with most convoys though.

As Torpex said it: At sea, even if you're not looking directly at a small object in broad daylight you're likely to miss it in the movement of the waves. The problem at sea is that it's constantly moving and than makes finding and tracking small objects extremely difficult. At night a submarine is visually almost undetectable unless it's got the moon from the front lighting it up.
The point that the lookouts on the ships had a higher position and thus could actually detect uboats earlier (which I've read several times here in the forum) is not valid in my opinion, because a large object is always easier to spot than a tiny one. And considering that a surface ships is more than 3/4 above the waterline with sometimes several meters height just to get to the main deck and often sprouting funnels (with smoke), derricks, guns and masts, wheras a sub (except for the conning tower which has less than two meters) rises little more above the water than a rowboat. So the slight advantage a deck officer on a DD might have due to it's higher position is also his biggest disadvantage.
I even tried that myself in SH3. I positioned the free camera on or near a freighter in high seas. That freighter had detected me and started evasive maneuvers. I could easily make him out without binoculars, but when I was "on" the freighter taking a look around all I could see was the waves. Even though I knew exactly in which direction to look I couldn't find my boat for minutes until for a split second its bow popped up and vanished again. And each time I reset my view and tried again it took me some time to locate the boat again. Whereas on the bridge of the boat the freighter never left my eyesight for a second.

Don't get me wrong: I've been playing subsims for close to 20 years now, and GWX is the first one to come close to the great AOTD feeling again, and I'm extremely grateful for that, because the biggest shortcomings of SH3 was the enemy AI. Everything's fine for me at the moment. The DD tactics (waiting on the surface playing dead, attacking in groups, getting more aggressive and better equipped as the war approaches) are really great now, but the enemy hawk-like eyesight in my humble opinion is still too good.

Just my 2 cents. Sorry for rambling. Couldn't help it. Was the only way to get everything said :) Thanks for reading.

Just a suggestion..and only a suggestion....what if the AI visual detection range were "calibrated" by actual human eyesight? In other words, go external, and if you can see the scope or surfaced sub at a specified range in a moving ocean make that range the visual range? I mean what better way to give the AI a human element.

I as well must agree that GWX (and may I say its the only mod I tried) is definately the bomb!

Frank :cool:

Sorry, but that won't work because you are then only simulating human eyesight range WITHOUT using binoculars - the range of the naked eye. Because the external camera can't zoom in and out to replicate 8x magnification with binoculars.

Surely no naval vessel of any kind, of any nation, would ever put to sea without a pair of binoculars for the lookout!

Of the 9 U-boats sunk in 1939, two were sunk by mines and one by a British sub. The other six were destroyed by depth charges from 2 or 3 ASW vessels (never by just one alone.) Also in at least 2 cases, premature torpedo detonation or broaching the surface gave the U-boat's approximate position away.)

Of the 24 U-boats sunk in 1940, two were rammed by friendly or neutral ships, two were sunk by aircraft, two more by British subs, and 7 definitely and probably one more were lost to mines. Two were sunk by combinations of 4 destroyers and a Sunderland, and the remaining 8 by ASW vessels, mostly multiple ASW vessels.

Single escorts should usually be fairly easy to escape from in 1939/40 - but multiple ones, much less so. A lot more difficult to evade escorts working in pairs, with one pinging and the other depth-charging.

Mines were a big killer of U-boats early in the war - if your career runs from 1/9/39 to 31/12/40, you should have about a 10% chance of hitting one during that time.

Darn good point! I did forget that. So how about a mission with the users sub in the middle and 3 or four subs with a couple surfaced and a couple submerged going in different directions. Then use the subs scope & binoculars trying to locate them? Would that fit the bill? (personally I think in theory it would be a fair test)

Frank:cool:

how far can the average lookout see in the middle of the ocean? Could a lookout really see a uboat 5 miles (8km) away?

another question, why do some people have easier experiences with the DD's and others have a really hard time with them? I have yet to play GWX (cause of a fried video card, currently ordering new one) and im concerned that the DD's can see way to far according to some of the kaleuns. although im concerned about the distance that they can see, im not concerned about the DD's being really good, i mean look at all the evidence some of the earlier posters gave and in Das Boot they get the crap DC'ed out of them.

GWX sounds awesome , cant wait

Thanks

Scheisskopf :-j

In reality on a clear day you can see far more than 8Km away at sea. In GWX the watch crew on the sub sees quite far away but this depends on the weather conditions. The DD watch crews have to come closer to see you as you're a tiny little thing in a very big ocean. As the war goes on the watch crews of the DDs get better and better, so towards the end of the war things get really difficult

so in essence, DD's spotting you from 8km is reasonably realistic

actually, i think its good if the game is tougher, vanilla SH3 and the first couple GW's were way to easy IMHO, even on 100% realism later in the war

Schkpf :-j

I can't definitely speak for others why that is so, but I have my suspicions. ;)

When I started my first patrol in GWX (Sep '40) I decided to be a bit cautious and test the waters, as it were.

Turns out I wasn't cautious enough :-?

Started my second career at the same date. So far I've reached late '41 and 9 patrols, with a bit over 350,000 tonnes sunk. I'm not gonna say it was easy, because it wasn't. But I will say what I think the difference is between peoples experiences with DDs and escorts.

Don't take cocky risks.
Don't get greedy.
Don't rush.
Don't get impatient.

No matter the range, if you see them assume they can see you (and possibly already have seen you).
Invest the time to make an approach; don't just charge in.
If you (submerged) can hear them, assume they can hear you.
Don't wait until things're flushed down the crapper: run silent early and stay that way. Forget about reloading afterwards: GET OUT OF DODGE!
Be willing to break off and run. This is positively the situation where 'He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day'. Or, perhaps, 'He who LOS-es and runs silent away lives to sink more another day'.
Soon as you've flushed your tubes go deep as fast as possible, jink away and run silent.

At the moment in my career (late '41) I find DD's and escorts more of an annoyance than a hazard. I'm sure that'll change soon though! :p :D

Seriously though. I interpenetrate a convoy, take my shots then run. Usually by the time the escorts get near my location I'm around 160 meters deep, moving 1 knot and running silent. Ashcans rain like hail all around but seldom near me. I find that annoying because (just as it really was) the escorts are mostly just making sure I stay down so as to keep the fleeing convoy safe.

But . . .

I also never forget they are dangerous, and potentially lethal annoyances. I don't take them, ever, for granted. And, IMO, I think that's the answer to your question: those that seem to have easy experiences with them give them the respect and dread they deserve, while those that have hard times with them don't.

So I'm on a course to intercept a convoy at about 6pm in October, 1940. The weather is raining and it's quite foggy so visibility is poor (probably less than 1000m) . The wind speed is not very high, but the sea is still quite choppy. I'm proceeding at 1/3 ahead on the surface ready to submerge to listen for the convoy because the watch crew haven't spotted a thing and are unlikely too. Suddenly the detection icon turns red so I jump to the bridge and do a quick 360 with naked eye, then binoculars and then even the UZO, but I can't see a thing. So I dive to periscope depth and immediately get a warship contact to starboard bearing down on me at high speed. A quick check with the scope and sure enough a DD is making a beeline for me. At this point I get all the merchant contacts on the port beam. So it seems I ran into the convoy between the lead escort and the merchants. I hadn't spotted anything at all yet the lead escort had detected me, turned round and made an attack run before I knew anything. If I had turned the sound meter off I'd be dead, but luckily I escaped after crash diving below the oncoming merchants, albeit with some damage from the depth charges.

Now I skulk about for a bit, the convoy passes overhead and continues on and eventually the DDs lose interest and move on. I come to periscope depth and look around. No visual contact. No sonar reports come in at short range...mostly they are long range. So I surface so I can repair my tower and set speed to roughly match the convoy, so I will tail them until it's properly dark before attacking. Within minutes the little sub has turned red again and I can see flares going up. Again I can't see any ships and the watch crew haven't reported a sighting. Then, sure enough, a corvette comes plowing out of the gloom directly at me, all guns blazing. I dive to periscope depth. I'm pretty annoyed by now, so I decide that I'm going to take it on. :stare: After a few minutes another DD joins in. We end up circling each other at about 300m, with the enemy taking runs at me, but being too close to get up to attack speed and too close for me to get a torpedo away and armed. Eventually I manage to manouever enough that I get shots away and actually sink both DDs!!! :o
So, it seems that the escorts were defintely not elite, because they didn't sink me, in fact they were quite unorganised and uncoordinated. But...they were spotting me waaaaaay to easily in fog and rain before I could see them. What's with that? Am I being detected by radar? I didn't think that radar was a problem for me in 1940?

That post is excellent! In my opinion it deserves to be stickied with some huge, alert-red letters saying "Before you try to play GWX!". Thanks for that lecture, proffessor von Hesse.

seconded :up:
speaking of convoys my tactic is....you dont have to sink all the ships in the convoy thats almost impossible without getting yourself killed i just take out the biggest and then hi-tail it out

Raw R
Me in that same situation.
I dive to periscope depth go to silent running and set my depth to 14 meters long before I am near the convoy and risk losing contact by it turning than risk my boat unreasonably.
I make 2 knots and spend much time on the hydro tracking the sounds. I wait until I hear the lead escort pass me and is 180 to me.
I keep my eyes and ears on the hydro waiting and maneuvering to be in the path of the merchants by sound as in fog and rain the visual is 300 meters and if I wait that long it is too late (usually)
When I can see the merchants are spread on the hydro about 150 degrees I know they are close and I turn 90% (so they would be crossing in front of me and my tubes) still making 2 knots and silent.
I will not reload
I will take what I can and slither away like a man that wants to keep his men safe more than kill the English.
If the first row of ships passes without a visual I line up row two on the hydro and fire two fish at a 5% spread. If I do not see a visual in a couple minutes I fire two more bow fish at 5% then track the line a stern and fire that one fish.
Of course, If I make a visual I try and align and fire but silently. Once my fish are gone I keep a close watch on all escort sounds. I keep my boat at 14 meters at all time so my peri is barely above the water when up full and half the time it is submerged.
The hassle is worth the added protection.
It is more difficult for escorts to hear me silent at 14 meters than deep so unless I am being charged by a bunch of them I stay at 14.
If it gets too hot I hit flank speed and dive to 150 meters where I can get a constant update one on escort while I track a second on the hydro myself.
I usually keep the stern fish for an escort. If one makes a run I hit flank so am close to him (avoids the K-Guns) and yet not where his stern drop will be.
If the angle is him charging down the throat I let him pass by and usually I can see which way he will turn I place my stern tube 20% in front of him and fire. Hit or miss I am making for 150 meters ate that point.
It is very important to learn to listen on the hydro. One can hear which escort is dropping so by calculating where he is and where he is going one can turn, hit flank speed and not be where the cans will detonate.
Now back to 2 knots a 45% change in course and listening to hear what the English will do next.
The hydro is not accurate in auto so manning this yourself and then jumping to helmsman yourself to execute the speed and turn so one does not have to wait for casual Hans to get off his Jawohl Herr Kaleun buttocks and do what I needed done 5 seconds ago is a big reason for evading Wasser Bomben and living to see France again!

Wulfmann

Hi, thanks for that, I'm going to try your stuff out next time I come across a Convoy; I also sit at 14 metres and am pressing the 'H' button a lot more than before, turning the wheel and listening etc. but getting away from the Escorts after sinking usually 2 ships has always been a big problem to me, can't seem to shake em' off ?! I've tried going deep, 2 knots and go the opposite direction to the Convoy in the hope that the Escorts would in time, return to it but nope, just keep on circling above and dropping nasty things onto us. Cheers.

von Hesse, thanks for the explaination :up:

i also agree that that could be a potential sticky