Thanks for putting me right

Did I said/wrote something wrong? :06:

Volodya, приятель, :D

nothing matters and everything matters: it all depends on the adopted perspective.

Personally, I think that talking about a simulation, any detail deserves the maximum attenction. The original purpose of this project was not only to fix some undoubtedly broken features, but also to tweak armament settings so to mimic as much as possible their real specs. These specs are not only a matter of taste or immersion. Rates of fire, reload times, etc. may and will affect the use made of the Flak guns, and can greatly impact the gameplay. I think we agree on this point and I won't insist on it.

Furthermore, I have spent long hours collecting historical information and converting it in "non-subjective" game settings. Some of my calculations (most of them, I have to admit) are in accordance with stock settings, and some others are not. In any case, I have already made too much work on them, for simply giving them up for no reason.

Indeed, I am ready to discuss them and to revise them if tests demonstrate that they are wrong or that they will make the game unbalanced. Compromises are always possible and often required, but in any case it is my opinion that any "compromise setting" should be based on historical specs/facts, and not vice-versa.

Now the real point is: are we on the same wavelenght? I hope so :up:

If multiple firing modes are impossible, I guess I would be inclined to support the most realistic one (2 guns). It would be nice to be able to see all four barrels firing in an "emergency" though...

If we decide to use the two gun firing mode, I think this would be acceptable.

Very interesting. I was also under the impression that the Flakvierlinge used the larger capacity magazine. I'm currently at the library and will double-check some sources for you. But in the meantime, I think your arguments are quite persuasive.:yep:


:up:

Compare :salute:

I think the best way is:
Make the necessary changes to be close to the historically accurate, because I did not read tons of WWII literature like you are, send me the files and I'll see how the historical accuracy corresponds to the game realities..

Then we could discuss all our experience :up:

I can prepare two versions of the same sim file with alternative settings. Unfortunately I cannot join those settings (I could give the gun two alternative controllers, but only one of them would be applied anyway), but using two alternative patches we would be at least able to test the two firing modes, and eventually to pick the one which works better.

The vierling is one of those guns whose settings are going to be most heavily overhauled compared to the stock game. What especially worries me, is how the gun will be going to "sound"

:up:
In any case, we would be behind the gun or anyway too busy with our Kaptain tasks for noticing the flaw :03:

yes, please keysersoze, check it if you can! :salute:

My current sources are Wikipedia, Chris Bishop's Encyclopedia of Weapons of World War II and a few unreferenced webpages

:sign_yeah: :up:

After checking two sources, it seems that the Flakvierlinge typically used 20 round magazines.:hmmm:

Hans Mehl (Naval Guns: 500 Years of Ship and Coastal Artillery) says about the 2 cm C/38 Quad: "The ballistic data of the guns is the same as that of the 2cm weapons previously illustrated. Once again ammunition was fed in 20 round magazines (later also 40 round magazines)" (p. 127).

Mirslaw Skwiot (German Naval Guns, 1939-1945) says they used 20 round magazines but doesn't mention the later use of the 40 round capacity. (p. 381).

Regarding the sound: I agree it will be very important to get this element right. A quick search failed to turn up any really good audio clips of the Flakvierling firing (there are a few clips of Flakpanzer IVs firing on youtube, but the quality is very bad and is marred by narration and music). On a somewhat unrelated note, I also think the stock depth charge sounds are much too quiet. I've experimented with amplifying the stock clip, but this tends to degrade the quality of the audio

I continued my calculations on Flakvierlings rates of fire, based on the known specs and on my assuption that the gun had to use 40 rounds magazines:

4 guns "combined" fire:
cyclic rate of fire: 1,400/1,800 rpm (from my sources)
practical rate of fire: 800 rpm (from my sources)
reload time: 5.1/6.7 sec (calculated; varies depending of the cyclic rof considered)

2 guns "sustained" fire:
cyclic rate of fire: 900 rpm (calculated: half of the cyclic rof for combined fire)
practical rate of fire: 700/720 rpm (calculated; varies depending on reload time considered)
reload time:* 0/1.3 sec (calculated; varies depending on cyclic rof and "base" reload time considered

* I hav taken combined fire reload times as base, and I subtracted from them the time for a whole clip to be fired.

This explains why Germans considered combined fire too expensive: the latter allowed for a bigger instant load of fire (1,400/1,800 rpm versus 900 rpm) but, on the other hand, sustained fire ensured a more constant bullet flux (null or very short reloading times) with a modest reduction of the pratcical rof (700/720 rpm versus 800 rpm) :know:

Does it make sense to you?

It doesn't add up: at the given rates of fire, guncrew would have been forced to reload each 6 seconds, and to do it in 2-3 seconds for all of the 4 guns (!) :hmmm:

so either:

- all the sources we have consulted so far are wrong (which at this point seems improbable);

- or, more likely, the practical rate of fire of 800 rpm is relative to the later 40 rounds magazine, and 20 rounds rates of fire had to be considerably lower.

Do you have any information on rates of fires in your books? In any case, considering that the vierling entered service sometime around '41 and that, according to your information, it wasn't fitted on Uboots before June '43, I would take anyway the 40 rounds figure for game settings. What do you think?

weapons (guns, depth charges, bullets, etc.) sounds are in our todo list. Currently the game got just few sounds which are shared by many guns. Customizing sounds for each gun is possible, so let me know if you find any good sound for the guns featured in game (I can send you a list).

Talking specifically about the Flakvierling, digging on the web, I have found the following sounds:

http://www.sounddogs.com/sound-effec...NDDOGS__li.mp3
http://www.sounddogs.com/sound-effec...NDDOGS__ta.mp3

On the same website there are some more sounds, but they all are very similar if not identical. Though not being excellent, this sound is at least acceptable; nonetheless, I am a bit dubious about using multiple guns sounds in game: if you hear stock gun sounds, they are clips sampling the sound of one single bullet flash. For multiple guns/fast firing guns, the game is probably mixing the same sound several times with an offset corresponding to gun's recoil time. :03:

Now I'm really confused....:hmmm: Mehl gives a theoretical rate of fire of 1800 rpm. Skwiot also gives the 1800 rpm number. However, in the introduction to his section on German light AA guns he says this (I will quote it at length to provide context):

"The most effective solution developed by the German designers was installing four guns in a single mount. This was known as the 2cm Flakvierling 38 and had a theoretical rate of fire of 4 x 150 rounds per minute (!)....Another weak point were the twenty-round magazines, which could be emptied by seven second's firing. This enforced pauses between bursts from individual barrels as the magazines were changed. There were attempts to remedy this using belt-fed ammunition, but this never entered operational service" (p. 349).

This is an enormous discrepancy (600 rpm vs. 1800 rpm). My initial thought is that the 600 rpm number is based off 20 round magazines, since he also mentions that the 2 cm C/38 could (and apparently did) use either size of magazine, although the larger 40 round variety was preferred (p. 394). It's logical to assume that the earliest versions of the Flakvierling, which were being tested with the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe in 1940, might have used the smaller magazine. I agree with you that by June 1943, when they finally arrived in large numbers on the U-boats, they probably used the larger magazine.

I will definitely keep an eye (or an ear) out for good audio clips. I wonder if it would be possible to isolate a single muzzle blast from that clip and then use that as the base sound? Anyway, I assume the sound portion of the mod will come after the rebalancing of the guns, depth charges, etc.

It all makes much more sense to me now! :yeah:

- for a start, the 1,800 rpm combined cyclic rate of fire (compatible with the 420-480 rpm rof reported by other sources for the single C/38) is confirmed. This is obvious, as magazine size can't affect cyclic rate of fire. :up:

- despite the defintion of "theoretical" given by Skwiot, the 600 rpm figure must be relative to the practical rate of fire using 20 rounds clips. Replacing 800 with 600 in my equation gives me a reloading time of 5.3 sec at 1,800 rpm of cyclic rof. This result, on turn, is compatible with the reloading time previously calculated for 40 rounds clips/ 800 rpm practical rof (5.1-6.6). :up:

- the reported clip duration of 7 sec is probably calculated over the practical rate of fire: 4 x 20 rounds x 60 sec / 600 rpm = 8 seconds. This in not exactly the expected 7 seconds, but I coudn't think of a better explaination. Maybe the fact that not all the historians are fond mathematics lovers ccould account for the error :D

:up:

I have found another 20mm Flak clip (well, actually a youtube video). The gun seems a zwilling to me, but its sound resembles more the one made by a quad Flak :hmm2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qyi2dL5ZNcI

Isolating a single sound from original audio clips/footage in often not easy, due to the presence of reverbe and overlapping sounds. In this case, the sound of each detonation starts when the previous one has not yet ceased. Cleaning this sample might be possible, but I cannot guarantee that the result would be acceptable. Using a clean sound (a single shot one), and eventually editing it (adding the typical firing gear noise) is probably preferable.

Well, it depends. If we find good sounds for the German Flaks, a sound update might be possible in short time. Another forum member, spydar1959, offered to look for some good samples. Apparently he has access to a large database of military historical footage, and he is quite familiar with audio editing. I am currently waiting for his news :03:

Ah, you're quite right. Not sure what I was thinking there.:oops:

I agree that the 600 rpm rate of fire seems to be practical instead of theoretical. In fact, I initially recorded it as "practical?" when making some changes to that historical specs. document.

Once again, your logic is impeccable, and I believe you've solved the issue:salute:. And you're quite right about historians not liking numbers, unless they happen to be dates with interesting historical events attached.:D


Yeah, that looked like a C/38 Zwilling, but the sound quality was pretty decent.

Excellent!:up: As I said, I will gather any promising audio clips I happen to stumble across.

I almost hesitate to say this, since I normally always favor historical accuracy above all else, but I don't think it's absolutely necessary to collect a perfect audio sample of each particular gun, if that is even possible. The reason is simple: there are very few recordings that truly capture the experience of being next to a weapon of that size while it is firing. My uncle is a bit of a collector of historical firearms, so I grew up target shooting many old military rifles. Even at those relatively small calibers, the initial crack and the subsequent long rumble of something like an 8mm Mauser is very loud if heard without ear protection. Without knowing anything about the technical limitation of audio recording, all I can say is that there aren't many recordings in games/sims, movies, or documentaries that feel like the real thing.

I guess my point is that it's more important for the sounds to be accurate relative to each other, rather than to be accurate in an absolute sense. I hope that made a little bit of sense...

Well, when I started collecting guns specifications for this mod, I was as confused as you. Very often the information provided by various sources is lacking or contradictory. In the worst cases, the same source can state a fact, and contradict it a few rows later. :doh:
In many cases, available data have to be taken with a pinch of salt, and with a good dose of imagination :D

In general, I think that NavWeaps is a good online resource. It resumes mostly the information reported by Capbell's Naval Weapons of World War 2, often completing and comparing it with the specs available from various other sources. :up:

...yes, dates and statistics :03:

Okay, I have already captured its audio. Let's see what we can do with it :up:

P.S: digging in sounddogs I have found a few more generic sounds, which are cool because they include the sound of the falling casing:

http://www.sounddogs.com/results.asp...yID=142&Type=1

Thank you, I really appreciate yor help :)

I see what you mean. At this moment I am just looking for 4-5 sounds:
1-2 sounds for 20mm Flaks (if possible, one for single guns and one for multiple guns, with the additional crank/firing gear noise)
1-2 sounds for 37mm Flaks (if possible, one for the SKC30 with the additional gun loading noise and one for the M42)
1 for deckguns.

I don't pretend them to sound like the real thing, because I don't have any idea of their real sound, but I would be satisfied if they vaguely resembled the sounds heard on war movies or on historical footage, when available. :03:

Sounds good to me. :yeah: I have never experienced firing anything as large as a 20mm or a 37mm, so I'm no expert on Flak sounds :o. I guess what I was trying to say is that we can be open to the possibility of using non-WWII and even non-German sound clips. Obviously, if we can find a perfect clip of a C/38 firing, then we should use it. But if we are forced to choose between an old and badly distorted clip of a C/38 and a high quality clip of, for example, an American or British 20mm firing, it would be okay to use the American or British clip. The important thing is that the rhythm of the gun firing sounds similar to documentary clips of the German flak guns