AG124 You summed up the general feelings in the West very well, no one can be offended by what you wrote. Im one of those that believe that eventually there is going to be an open conflict.

No arguments to justify the events?

I wasn't talking about members of this forum - I was talking about moderate islamists. I don't mean to attack or criticize anyone on this board, and would like to hear the other side of the argument is anyone has anything to offer. :yep: It would be an excellent exercise of Freedom of Speech.:know:

Westerner must not be told that "Islam is peace". We have brain and senses to judge that by our own. ISLAM needs to be told that it should want peace. It also needs to be told that tolerance and peace is something different than Islam's superiority and dominance.

They want to live here - they have to accept our rules and cultures and live int he way we used to live in these our homecountries and our own culture -and they have to want to be one of us by heart and mind. Since Islam wants to overcome anything that is not itself, it cannot accept to do that: wanting to be like one of us, anting to be our culture, our set of values, our laws, habits, way of livings. Islam want's Islam's rules and laws and habits and settings. So for self-protective reasons we must demand that a Muslim emmigrant must want to be one of us by heart and mind and conviction - which inevatibly would mean that he must stop to be Muslim. He cannot be one of us and and wanting to turn our culture into Islam at the same time. And he helps to acchieve that result simply by his very own presence, no matter if he considers himself to be tolerant or not. We cannot afford to give muslim emigrants the same treatment as let's say Hindi or Buddhist emmigrants. These do not try to overcome their host. Islam does, and declares that as a holy duty.

I have seen slogans and cartoons in Iran on almost a daily basis in which the West, Western nations, Israel were victims of far more offending, disgusting, man-hating illustrations than these harmless Muhammad carricatures. These cartoons I saw were about bloodbaths, murder, mutilation of Jews, Western politicians, infidels; and that all the Western culture is evil, barabaric, primitive. They defended genocide, the Nazis, gas-chambers in these illustrations. But they want the Danes to excuse for these harmless carricatures. And harmless they were in comparison to Islam's own bloodthirsty propaganda.

And it was in Denmark where Danish people published these cartoons. who the hell do they think they are that Indonesians, Arabs, Iranians now tell the Danes what they shall do and shall not do anymore in their very own home country...???

Bigot, arrogant primitives.

Want to be treated as equals? Make yourself a civilization that is worth to be treated as equals. Want to be regarded as sensible and reasonable? Stop behaving like hysteric idiots, keep your temper under tighter control. Want to claim peace for your ideology? Stop investing in Islam's expansion. Want to appear as humanitarian? Free your women of slavery. Want to be en par with the West's history of ethical, philosophical, cultural developement? Make a crashcourse in cultural developement in the last 12 hundred years or so. I recognize you as equals when you deserve it. Not one century earlier.

:hulk: :arrgh!: :down:

Any man who is not law enforcement and has a weapon, yet tries to mask his identity is a valid target for any self respecting citizen in my book at least!

-S

Best idea I have heard in ages! Can you imagine the kind of press a western country would get if they started in with terrorist acts just because of a cartoon? It's unbeleivable to me that it is actually happening in Muslim countries!

-S

One more idea pops into my head - I don't think we have seen the last of this yet. These Muslims are so smart, they will start blowing up their own people and blowing up their own mosques soon! I'm beginning to stereotype all of them it would seem, but how am I not supposed to when they pull things like this?

-S

Why even try? I don't agree w/ the mass demonstrations and bomb threats and all, nor do i agree w/ what i see as blatant antagonism w/ the justification of freedom of speech (the initial cartoons). I think both sides are wrong. people in arab countries shouldn't necessarily get upset about people in other countries exercising their freedoms. On the other hand, whatever you believe about mohamed the prophet or the man, portraying him with a bomb -- to me at least -- is analagous to a statement saying all muslims are bombers. Is that right? Or justified? Why aren't we arguing about that?

But if i try and distance myself from events, i'll be called a "moderate muslim" who's betraying his faith in effect -- by non-muslims, which is funny.

If i try and claim that the majority of muslims (i.e. 1 billion out of 2 billion worldwide -- that would be a hell of a demonstration) likely have more things to worry about than a cartoon in a danish paper, i'll be deluged w/ posts crying, "where is this silent majority?"

i could try and point out that hypocrisy exists in both western and arab editorials and political diatribes -- thats politics and media for you, wherever you live. but then we'll decend into an argument about the merits of democracy, and how islam is (or isn't) compatible with modern life.

so why don't i? people think what they want to -- that's their right. you believe what you want, leave me with my beliefs. me posting isn't going to change any preconceived notions that people have, right or wrong. so why should i bother? we (happy times, iceman, abraham, skybird, avon, etc.) have had these arguments on previous threads. why go over it again?

and then you'd have to take the bus to work -- or pay through the nose for a gallon of gas. it's a democracy -- people can vote w/ their feet -- literally.

Check out Iraq, man. it's been going on for long before these cartoons came out.

that's really up to you, i guess.

I COMPLETELY agree with what was posted here. Now here's a thought...why did no one pick up on these sentiments after events such as 9/11? As I recall, the airwaves were rife with images of Palestinians dancing in the streets upon hearing the news of the 9/11 attacks.

When the Palestinians elected a terrorist led government this past week the Western world threatened to pull aid. Why is this even a question? Aid from the ENTIRE world should be halted until Hamas renounces terrorism. It SHOULD have been halted a long time ago, when those 9/11 images were first broadcast. However, the Saudis and Pakistanis are already committing to a payment of at least $33 million to the Palestinian Authority to replace a $55 million payment that Israel delayed while it attempts to figure out how to negotiate peace with a government led by a party whose fundamental principal is Israel's DESTRUCTION!

Why do we continue to give aid to those nations which are obviously ungrateful? Why do OUR tax dollars go to fund terrorist states which are wearing a thin veil over their true nature? More importantly, why are we giving aid to the rest of the world when we can't even take care of OUR OWN PEOPLE?!

I am NOT an isolationist. I believe that we should maintain our involvement in world politics, and aim to solve disputes peacefully while still maintaining our superior military capabilities (such as stealth aircraft, supercarriers, nuclear propelled vessels, tanks, etc.). However, I do not believe that the American taxpayer has a fundamental duty to fund all of the other nations of the world. Funding our allies is one thing, funding our enemies is just ridiculous.

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg....R14eVa5uVtsw--
In front of the French Embassy in London.

Of all the hypocrisy. His freedom's what's allowing him to wave that sign. If he doesn't want it, he should get the hell out of the UK.

Now, the US State Departmet has taken a anti-cartoon message...

from CNN...

In Washington, the U.S. State Department criticized the drawings, calling them "offensive to the beliefs of Muslims."

While recognizing the importance of freedom of the press and expression, U.S. State Department press officer Janelle Hironimus said these rights must be coupled with press responsibility.

"Inciting religious or ethnic hatred in this manner is not acceptable," Hironimus said. "We call for tolerance and respect for all communities and for their religious beliefs and practices."

Token message.

THey have to say SOMETHING. I think if they said nothing it would be taken as a sign of approval. But even if they say something (like they did), it wont change anyones minds reguarding the US.

chickenshi¨t Frogs are the bravest of em all again :damn:

Carrefour is a French supermarket chain , how low can you go in towelhead arselicking



http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4236/carref6qn.jpg

For two reasons. By historical reality Muhammad was a man of violance. War, murder, massmurder, intimidation, conquering, raiding, imprisonment, slavery, torture, harems and supression of females - all this were tools that he made massive use of. muhammad already had participated in raids and had killed with his own hands while still beeing in service for his uncle, long before he appeared on the scene as a preacher. No reasonable man with some historical knowledge could argue that he was a man having a peaceful message to mankind on his mind. To say that would be like arguing that Hitler deserved the peace nobel prize because his party had the word "sozialistisch" in it's name.

And second, the position that now demands arguing about those cartoons is heavily biased and one-sdied. Why do we not argue about what I mentioned in this quote, and that is happening in the araba world dozens of times EACH DAY?

First Islam cleans it's own house, then we can start talking about the West's behavior. It does not compare. First we talk about making "funny cartoons" of massmurder, mutilation, and depticting infidels as animals and lower creatures that deserve to feel the whip, or even beeing nuked. And then we may talk about illustrations of Muhammad that concentrate on his - by historical matter of fact - violant mindset. He is the starting point of the biggest military conquest human history has ever seen. The picture of him with a turban in form of a bomb I found not to be too cartoonish at all. It simply was illustrating a truth about that man.

If some hundred million people for whatever a reason choose to identitfy themselves with such a figure, it is not my problem, but theirs. But it tells me something about these people's mindsets.

Yes they should, they can get as upset as they want, and the Danes can get upset about Muslims too. I find the way Muslims get "upset" to be quite amusing though, if this is "upset", what do they do when they're actually angry? Muslims souldn't necessarily love Denmark, that's their freedom, and vice-versa.

Is it right or justified to put a death sentence on Salman Rushdie for what he speaks? Is it right or justified to hate and threaten an entire nation because of a cartoon? Why aren't we arguing about how Palestinians are paid to sit at home all day doing nothing so that when there's a protest they join to avoid death by boredom? Aren't the protesters upset with the whole of Denmark, not the cartoon, but the whole package? Is that right or justified to the Danes who have more things to worry about than a cartoon in a danish paper?

Nobody is complaining about quiet Muslims, I'm concerned with the protesters, with people who cover their faces and chant hate, death and destruction, people who want to destroy me, I could care less about Muslims who have better things to do in their lives than blast me.

You are completely right though, South Park would never exist in an Islamic nation, in the Western Democracies you can publish any cartoon you want and take responsability for it, if you published the same cartoon in an Arab editorial you'd get your head chopped off before the police could arrest you and get you a trial. In the West you can question anything, anytime, anywhere, you can raise your voice and say all the crap you want and draw and paint all you want, responding for it. Potentially any text or cartoon might offend someone, but one can only be offended if he allows himself to be offended, if he accepts the offense, that is, if he is weak of mind.

I saw a protestant man kick a statue of the Hail Mary in his church, and years later a crazy man threw rocks at another statue of the Hail Mary inside a catholic church, why didn't Catholics worldwide filled the streets with Vatican flags and holy grenades preaching the end of protestants, the destruction of all protestant people, the burning of all their nations.

Do you REALLY can't spot the difference?! Take off your burqa or find a more transparent one.

Oh, don't worry, Muslim govts would still sell us oil. They can't live without our dollars either. Heavy crude is tough to drink ;)

I do wish we heard and saw more from Muslims such as you. Caspo :up:

:rotfl:

„Like a student that writes pussy on the blackboard to see how the woman teacher reacts�, comment on the publication of the cartoons by a chief-editor from another Danish newspaper.
The chief-editor of the local rag that published the cartoons in October 2005 first said, it was a test to what extent the freedom of opinion is already affected by fear of Muslims -- to apologise some weeks later.
Headline: “Pussy chief-editor makes use of his right to write pussy on the blackboard and apologises�.

To equal Islam and (all) its followers with terrorists by e.g. drawing Mohammed with a bomb on his head is with no doubt insulting. Agreed.

The moral outrage in the Muslim world is totally overblown. Agreed.

The cartoons are passed on in Islam Internet forums as Powerpoint presentations http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index....=post&id=19470
:-j
If people are so serious about the religious ban of picturing Mohammed, why do they to spread them to as many people as possible? That is false-faced: those people pretend to be concerned Muslims but above all they are politically motivated and try to round up the stupor cattle.

And of course, the anti-Islam fraction is recruiting sympathisers as well.

Found something else interesting - not quite as severe as the Muslim protest but it does prove that there are other religous fundamentalist groups willing to make a fuss over nothing. :P They are doing it rather peacefully though.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/eo/20060204/en_tv_eo/18292

But of course, it is not unusual for Britney Spears to create controversy.

Here are several points of view on Muslim immigrants in Denmark, including both sides. :yep:

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/450

BTW - I would like to state that I too think the cartoons are stupid and rather ignorant but I still believe that the authors have the right to publish them. As Voltaire (?) said, "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." That is the basis for our democracy - well, that and equality of all people. I would also like to state that I have read newspaper articles mocking my home province (NL) and stating Canada would better off without us. :down: Even though this was outrageous, no one called for the deaths of the authors and a peaceful protest resulted in an apology from the newspaper (which was sufficient). No fatwa (I forget how to spell it) required. And I certainly feel no hatred towards the rwest of the country, of which I am proud to be a part.

One more article on the subject which presents a similar point of view - although the issue in this case is the location of protests and not really the message. This is a little different - I agree with some llimits on protests in this case but because a funeral is not an appropriate place for a graphic protest, not because one group is attacking another (a cartoon would not be inappropriate here, for example).

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/kansas/...el=kansas_news

http://www.enidnews.com/opinion/loca...034002317.html

http://tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/...0391/1006/NEWS