@ Hundertzehn:

why is he running?
Coward? No, far from it.

I like my quotes as you may have gathered by now, but, it is contextual, quoting here.

Well, i'll quote the iron Duke, commonly referred to as First Duke of Wellington, amongst other things, commander of British troops during Peninsular war and defeater of Napoleon at Waterloo:

"The true test of a general, is knowing when to retreat and to have the courage to do it."

Now what does this mean?
It means that, just as Wellington knew, that if one wants to beat a superior force, one must dictate the where and the when of the fight.

It's actually quiete obvious, to me at least, that going on the run as a political fugitive is not only part of a great and grand tradition, but is an entirely legitimate, practical and tactical choice given the grim record of the people who are shouting: “Seize him!”.

After all, why would a whistle-blower stand and trade punches with the administration which has had Bradly Manning caged up for 3 years!

Makes sense to me why he doesn't stand and fight.

Didn't William Binney say the same years ago ... from trailblazer and stellar wind, to prism or boundless informant - it was all made public years ago, and should be well known (?)

'He told you so'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMwQSybOp9M

'Growing state surveillance'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gimRzlqDNME

B.t.w. the first operations reaching that extent were underway in 2001.
I think the government tries to save its ass, because they certainly did know a bit of that, but were lied to by the secret services about the extent of those operations.
So it is very compromising for a government to a) having unintentionally lied (being not informed by the services) to the public, and b) thus giving evidence of obviously not being able to control those agencies, thus admitting incompetence.

The question of course is whether any government or congress, is able to control the clandestine actions of their own secret services, worldwide ? MI agencies and GCHQ in England. BND, MAD and 'Verfassungsschutz' (b.t.w. founded by the US against communists alone, what a laugh) in Germany ...
Or in other words: Who really rules, in those 'democracies' ?

Well, i have never whitnessed such tactics.
as long as he is untouchable, he can speak and publis^h
if he finds someone saying "screw the POTUS and his Crew", we give him shelter and provide him with a base to operate from...

but for snowden it is a dangerous game, that can be ended by the force of a sniper Bullet faster than extradiction and trial.

he put his life on the line, even as he ran away (do not tell me there are no plans to silence him forever). With the prospect of waking up his peers, in a long and difficult process.

Still stands...
what he does confuses me, and i do not claim to understand his strategy one bit. Maybe i need to study similar people more, Rebels that overthrew oppressive systems, pulled the evil out of the shadow of scecrecy.

Only hope he does not lose his momentum and his Vision, but manages to hook up with similar minded (ahem.. Assange?) people and mobilize the Masses.

For it is whistleblowers like him that wake up the world with a bang and a message...

"on your feet, man the guns, you have been screwed over"!!!

The term of 'whistleblower' itself, ist still connected to a policeman, or a person trying to stop a thief getting away .. nothing bad about it.

Now look at that!
http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Briten-sc...e10889281.html

germany asks questions over worries in a question catalog over several pages.
London answers "this is none of your business".

and obama is pissed at putin giving shelter to snowden?
How about physically (Layer 1) disconnecting the wires to and from that island...?

:haha::haha:

Years ago i thought: turn afghanistan into one big glass surface.
now i think "hang the western leaders"

^ bastards lol :)
I just don't think our BND would do anything else if it could, i just think they do not play in the same league.
"We plead for incompetence" lol


A bit OT:
It really is like connecting the dots, here the US surveillance program of the 1970ies "Cointelpro' :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
still in effect b.t.w., under a different name.



"[...]The intended effect of the FBI's COINTELPRO was to "expose, disrupt, misdirect, or otherwise neutralize" groups that the FBI believed were "subversive" by instructing FBI field operatives to:

1. create a negative public image for target groups (e.g. by surveiling activists, and then releasing negative personal information to the public)
2. break down internal organization
3. create dissension between groups
4. restrict access to public resources
5. restrict the ability to organize protests
6. restrict the ability of individuals to participate in group activities [...]"

Not so much of a 'democracy' :hmmm:
Of course telling in court that they never did such things, is not lying. It is 'avoiding the issue'.

sounds pretty much like "keep us(the white elite?) in power, disrupt anything, anyones efforts to bring about changes, however necessary they might seem, by using whatever tools you need"


:har:

That countrie's structure is such a lame Joke it seems.
Pretty much a copy of France before the revolution.

Exactly!

That's what we see.

The elite of aristocracy and church was brought to fall by the grown education of the people, provided by the spread of knowlege, information and communication through gutenberg's book print. It was a slow process, covering centuries, but finally it happened.

Democracy was established, power and control should be given to the elected representants of the people. Well, this went downhill, because the aristocracy kept their influence and control through money - capitalism/corporatism - you name it. In simple words -they bought the elected polititians. The USA ensures to have the best president money can buy, right?
(The development didn't synchronize around the world, some other forms of elite showed up. We may discuss clerical and socialist leadership sometime, but let's stay with our western development right now.)

Some political lead elites went crazy - Germany, Italy, Spain... - and the other capital driven democraties ended their rulership or they were overcome by their own people.

In the following decades the capitalist elites prospered, and they were clever enough to share some profit with the people. The communist/socialist systems were a counterweight to a totally free market.

With the end of the communists, this counterweight disappeared. The economical moral was thrown overboard and the ugly face of an uncontrolled, greedy and misanthropic system appeared. For the enormous wealth of a few, an enormous number of people has to die, to starve or to live in slavery labor conditions.

The military lost its enemy - the source for tax money. A new enemy had to be established. Well...

But now - with the internet - the education grows again, way faster and more intense than ever before. The elites have lost control over information, interpretation, over reality and truth of the people, needed for the motivation to act, to attack, to buy, to accept.... The controlled media - the heir of the churches job - are going head over heels to counter this loss. Desinformation, lies, intentional misinterpretation, distraction and the well tested injection of discord into the society are the weapons of choice. It works.

The elite is well aware of the danger. Their world is on the edge of revolution. Many people still simply continue in the circle of daily routines, of work, consumption, desinformation and manipulation. But more and more do realize the brutal injustice, the true benefit scroungers, the only winners of the system and of their tax money.

Some have to have three jobs to make a living. Others don't find a lucrative investment opportunity for their money. They call for better infrastructure, for better education, for a superior military bla bla bla - but they want to reduce the tax amount. Guess why? Without enough taxes, the society has to borrow more money to pay its duties. Who has money to offer in exchange for an attractive rate of interest?

We'll see what comes next...

I have alot more respect for Bradley Manning, he did not run off to 2 hostile countries with laptops full of information....

I am sorry, I appreciate what he did to expose this, but the fact he ran off to China and Russia, with info in his possession, is exactly why he should be hunted down.

If he wanted to whistleblow, he could have without going to Russia and China with laptops full of classified info.

Snowden is not a hero...

And how does a HS dropout get a job in the NSA, with the highest security clearances??

Bradley Manning, you got balls, Edward is a pansy, who thinks he can get fame like Assange.

A wannabe hero. Snowden stated he intentionally joined to expose info, sounds like a spy to me

you know what!? If Yubba had posted some link and written something about this story a few years ago or so

We would have laughed at him and mocked him.

Markus

Citations needed.

From what I heard, he ran because he had no choice, and revealed his identity so people would pay attention, rather then go back to sleep like people are apt to do.

Also, it seems entirely too common that the people who are most staunchly against the exposure of what our government is doing to us, tend to be hardline democrats and liberal progressives who not only like, but enjoy the big brother, big government nanny state.


edit:

Entirely too true.

Calling me a hardline democrat Ducimus proves your ignorance.

So why did Manning not run?

Snowden ran to China, then Russia, and is preparing to go to Cuba and Equador, real American hero.:timeout:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slate...a_traitor.html


Snowden is a spy.

You sure talk like one, and after all the bulll crap liberal progressive tried to do over the last six months or so, I can't say i have a high opinion of that ideology either. I am convinced that if there is a single ideology that has the greatest chance of sending the US into a totalitarian tyrannical state, it is the Democrats and liberal progressives. No, the Republican's aren't that much better since it was a republican president that passed the Patriot act. But the ideology that will surrender rights and freedoms for the illusion of safety the most? Liberal progressives.

Frankly, I don't give a rat's ass what snowden is, nor do I care what he might have on him. If he does have detailed files about what the NSA is doing, so much the better I say. The entire prism/surveillance thing needs to be, and should be, dismantled anyway.

Despite that, I still say Snowden is not of concern. He's a sideshow, a distraction of the real issue. What is of concern, is what the government is doing. THAT is what is important. Snowden, despite opening his mouth, quite frankly isn't important. I'm reserving judgement on him, because frankly, he doesn't interest me near enough to care. What I do care about is our constitutional rights, our freedom and liberty, and government abuse and overreach.

"Land of the free, home of the brave." Do you remember that? I know I do. We all should ask ourselves, at what point will we no longer be a free land, and courage all but gone? Probably at the point where we allow the government to take our freedoms from us because were scared some angry doucehbags got a visit from "The Good Idea fairy".

Snowden is no more a coward that George Washington was.

Washington, having retreated north from NY, lost at White Plains and ended up getting chased all over New Jersey and Pennsylvania. He knew he couldn't win the battle, so he refused to fight it. He "ran away" to continue the fight. Snowden did the same - instead of just waiting to get buried under the jail like Manning did - or simply never even hear the shot that puts a round through his braincase.

Oh - he has "classified stuff" on his laptops. Yeah well we knew that, since the stuff he leaked was classified to start with. Just because its "highly classified" does not mean its vital to our national security. It can easily mean its stuff that our own government does not want us to know it is doing to us - like SPYING on us. It is likely what he has is significant logistical information on the HOW, WHERE, WHEN and (most importantly) WHO for many of these programs. So calling him a traitor - when all he has done so far that has been proven is notify the people of this country that their government has been secretly violating their constitutional rights. If that is your definition of what a traitor is, then you would have been in agreement with King George that the 57 signers of the Declaration of Independence were traitors and worthy of death.

I see them as patriots who - after attempting to resolve their issues with their government (and king) in 1775 through the Declaration of Arms, had no choice but to rise up and through off the shackles of a government that refused to abide by its own laws. Kind of like what the US Gubment is doing today....

Obviously, we have a disagreement on what a traitor is then....

Quote:

Originally Posted by soopaman2 (Post 2076179) http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slate...a_traitor.html Snowden is a spy.

So far, lets check...

1. a person employed by a government to obtain secret information or intelligence about another, usually hostile, country, especially with reference to military or naval affairs.


...nope.





2. a person who keeps close and secret watch on the actions and words of another or others.

...the US gov't as well as Snowden.


3. a person who seeks to obtain confidential information about the activities, plans, methods, etc., of an organization or person, especially one who is employed for this purpose by a competitor: an industrial spy.

...nope.


4. the act of spying.

5. to observe secretively or furtively with hostile intent (often followed by on or upon ).

...none.


6. to act as a spy; engage in espionage.

...both sides



7. to be on the lookout; keep watch.

...both sides.

8. to search for or examine something closely or carefully.

...we all better!:rotfl2:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/spy

which spy is worse, the guy that exposes the government as a giant tapping your wires and wirelesses
or the gov't that spies on yall "for your common security"


anyone answering with "i trust my poiticians more than snowden"
should be ripped off freedom and security, for you traded freedom in for security and deserve neither.

right?

I mean like...
simplez, eh :D

t answer my own question:
I rather see Obama and his crooks hung by their balls than Snowden even in an interrogation.

because them be spying and searching data that is passing the worldwide Networks.

Big yellow text makes me wrong!

Good job!

http://techcrunch.com/2013/06/24/sno...to-expose-nsa/

Glad he told the Chinese this, must be looking for a job.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/24/44...contractor-job

Here too.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/25/politi...ak-snowden-job

And here...

Oh such a hero, he took the job to leak it, and you still defend him?

Then he ran to China and Russia with laptops full of info.

I see him in another class from Bradley Manning, this guy is not disgruntled but an intentional spy.


What he exposed is important, how he came about the info, then ran to hostile nations with it, is disgusting.

(edit: nothing worries you about this man gallivanting around russia, china , and soon Cuba and S America with national secrets worries you?

Manning at least had the balls to face those he accused.

A)
was he sent by those countries to
B)
share his info with them?

that would make him a spy.

if yes, he signed his death Warrant.

and yes, i defend him.
an enemy of my enemy is my friend.

by snooping on the networks, the US of A have made the world their enemy. and if not that, has removed the "friends" badge off a bunch of countries.
because you do not spy on your friends. You spy on your enemies.

if snowden is teh enemy of the US of A, he be my buddy for life...:D

because the guilty entity in here is the apparatus that the American population has created. allowed to develop. put in place. let rise to that position.
To me... the americans as such are guilty.

...if i push my POV to the extreme.


and no,he can travel where he wants. he aint carrying my countries secrets around.
the dude doesn't even know my country exists. hah.

So you wish to see America suffer because you hate us, thanks for being honest.

What did I do to you? my name is Chris, I am married with no kids, have 3 cats and a dog, and work 48 hours a week.

What did I do to you?