And your so happy about that. Don;t you care about the consequences where this could lead....

I actually find your gratification out of the situation quite sickening and disturbing.

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/4...handsupbj6.jpg
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/4...591629c802.jpg

Руки Bверх

Ofcourse im happy, these despots have to be contained. If you think peace in Europe is sick and disturbing you should move there and rally around Stalin.

The Shanghai meeting did not slam Russia, and mentioned positively it's active role. slightly positive outcome for Russia.

China, no matter it's real interests, did not take an opposing position to Russia, and did not challenge it. If it is left to this, this is at least the minimum goal for Russian'S definition of a positive outcome regarding china.

Mission accomplished, although maybe no major victory, so still a victory. A "world of hurt" is something different.

The West's position again is that of hot words and loud sounds, so no change there. and how impressed Russia is by western reactions, should be clear by now. Word is that taking back visa freedoms for Russian travellers are under consideration. Ouch- that hurts!

For the record, can you provide sources (regarding the outcome of SOC, that is)? Even if they are in German, so we can throw them into Babelfish? Thanks.

I see no victory in the Chinese position for Russia.
Those visa freedoms are one way of hitting the Russian upper and middle class, like i predicted earlier, it will hurt.

Even if China was all for Russia's actions in Georgia, do you think she'll jeopardize her relationships with the West by publicly showing a huge vote of support, thus drawing all the spears towards her?

So they maybe secretly support Russia? Interesting diplomacy..
They secretly wish all the worst for Russia is more likely scenario.

The question is, are the people of Russia prepared to suffer economically in support of Putin and his lackeys political direction? Believe me, once it starts to hurt the pocket of the guy in the street in Moscow when he sees himself paying more and more for imports, for food, for rent etc because his currency has gone down the toilet - that will invigorate new life into Putin's political opposition. The days of Putin being able to suppress the will of the Russian people have long gone - they have tasted democracy and Kentucky and there is no going back.


Well, having lived in a country shuned at one time by the West I can tell you it is not a pleasant experience. So I tend to think for a moment how an ordinary Russian citizen views this conflict. Does he or she want to go back to been impovirished, to see a lowering of their standard of living, to be restricted in their relationship with the west in whatever form? I doubt it. Because to be honest, that is the risk they are carrying. Democracies do not rattle their sabers at each other - never have. Putin, simply put, is not a democrat - hence the position Russia now finds herself in.

Just try the usual news outlets, Kazuaki. I even had in on the radio already.

just one of several:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/944f00c2-7...nclick_check=1

Note that they already manipulated the headline. Where the summit'S declaration says the group expressed concerns "with connection to recent tensions around the Ossetian issue", the headline tries to redirect it to concerns about Russia's role. And that is suggestive language, to put it mildly. China'S statement also is careful. what they said:"China expresses its concerns about the latest changes in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, (...) We understand the complex history and realities of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. At the same time, reflecting China’s consistent stance on such issues, we hope all the parties can appropriately resolve the issue through dialogue and consultation.” becomes: China "said it was concerned about Russia’s decision to recognize South Ossetia and Abkhazia."

So, no new immediate problems on the Shanghai front for Russia. At least the minimum goal acchieved. as the article said the Shanghai group decided against a more obvious lining up with russia desire just to avoid an unwanted provocation of the Western nations over this. so if they would not have had their own interests in the game, results probably would be less diplomatically hidden in careful words that are open to interpretation. And that they are open for interpretation already is the minimum gain Russia hoped to acchieve. Or did anyone seriously expect china to engage in the Caucasean internals? even me have not said or expected so.

However.

When did I say peace in Europe is sick and disgusting? From the way you speak it seems like you'd like to see Russia get a kicking, even from open conflict. You post smarmy, sarcastic and sorry bordering on outright racist comments about Russia with little smilies everytime there is any information that suggests Russia is going to get a kicking. If it did come to war, would you be there on the front line?

I want peace and stability however I don't think the rhetoric that is coming from both sides, especially from that ***** Milliband is conducive to either.

He has enormous support for himself, and even higher support for his stand on the Georgian issue. At least 3 in 5 support Putin and prefer him over Medwedew, that is a long-known number, another 20% support Medwedew Leaves just 20% for all the other political figures that are there.

A representative poll from Moscow's leading polling institute today was quoted in one article saying that 3 in 4 support Putin in the Georgian case. 1 in 2 sees Georgia as america'S puppet and america being responsible for the war, 1 in 3 say it is Georgia'S own responsibility, and less than 1 in 10 said that it was the russian's fault. As HT at some place pointed out, Georgian war last but not least is about creating domestic support. and the more pressure there is on Russia, the closer Russaisn will rally around Putin. Rallying around the flag in times of external threats is a reflex you see in many countries. serbia as well. america. China.

"We should have trampled on Georgia":
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...573839,00.html

Well, having lived in a country shuned at one time by the West I can tell you it is not a pleasant experience. So I tend to think for a moment how an ordinary Russian citizen views this conflict. Does he or she want to go back to been impovirished, to see a lowering of their standard of living, to be restricted in their relationship with the west in whatever form? I doubt it. Because to be honest, that is the risk they are carrying. Democracies do not rattle their sabers at each other - never have. Putin, simply put, is not a democrat - hence the position Russia now finds herself in.[/quote]

I never said russia is a democracy. I often said it is nothing less than that! but that is excalty the point. and many people hold democracy in high disrespect there. Even over here, in eastgermany, anti-democratic tendencies are popping up like mushrooms in late summer. Democracy is not too püopular in russia, and never was, and for the forseeable future will not be with the exception of the usual suspects: opposing intellectuals, which form a minority only. Isn't this what I am always preaching: that it is pojn tless to accuse russia not following democracy's rules when as a matter of fact it is no democracy at all? "Putinism" works well over there, for exactly this simple reason!

this is one of the west's constant mistakes: to assume that all world wants - and has to want - the model of western democracy. The EU fails with this.america fails with this in two wars. people, get back to your senses! We must not like it, but that's the way it is. Autocratic rulers are preferred in much of the Islamic world, and in the territories of the former Soviet Union as well. It works better with them, than democracy made in the EU or US. If you perceive it like that, does not count and is unimportnt. Thnat the local residents see it like that - this is the deciding point.

He has enormous support for himself, and even higher support for his stand on the Georgian issue. At least 3 in 5 support Putin and prefer him over Medwedew, that is a long-known number, another 20% support Medwedew Leaves just 20% for all the other political figures that are there.

A representative poll from Moscow's leading polling institute today was quoted in one article saying that 3 in 4 support Putin in the Georgian case. 1 in 2 sees Georgia as america'S puppet and america being responsible for the war, 1 in 3 say it is Georgia'S own responsibility, and less than 1 in 10 said that it was the russian's fault. As HT at some place pointed out, Georgian war last but not least is about creating domestic support. and the more pressure there is on Russia, the closer Russaisn will rally around Putin. Rallying around the flag in times of external threats is a reflex you see in many countries. serbia as well. america. China.

"We should have trampled on Georgia":
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...573839,00.html

I never said russia is a democracy. I often said it is nothing less than that! but that is excalty the point. and many people hold democracy in high disrespect there. Even over here, in eastgermany, anti-democratic tendencies are popping up like mushrooms in late summer. Democracy is not too püopular in russia, and never was, and for the forseeable future will not be with the exception of the usual suspects: opposing intellectuals, which form a minority only. Isn't this what I am always preaching: that it is pojn tless to accuse russia not following democracy's rules when as a matter of fact it is no democracy at all? "Putinism" works well over there, for exactly this simple reason!

this is one of the west's constant mistakes: to assume that all world wants - and has to want - the model of western democracy. The EU fails with this.america fails with this in two wars. people, get back to your senses! We must not like it, but that's the way it is. Autocratic rulers are preferred in much of the Islamic world, and in the territories of the former Soviet Union as well. It works better with them, than democracy made in the EU or US. If you perceive it like that, does not count and is unimportnt. Thnat the local residents see it like that - this is the deciding point. Our acceptance of understanding of their difrerence is neither wanted, nor needed by them.

Russia has brought this upon itself, but you seem to understand and appease it every dangerous step of the way.
This wont come to war but if it would, yes i would be there. Its not something you choose in this country, that luxury is reserved for you.

Hogwash...This hasn't been brought about by Russia all by itself.

I admit the Russian govt. has screwed up diplomatically and should have done its job and pulled back its troops into Southern Ossetia straight away. Put it didn't.

However all the handwringing in Europe and the US about Russia breaking international law, but paid no attention to the Russian government objections over Kosova which have been pointed out earlier in this thread is what annoys me. Taking everything that Sakashvilli says at face value.

As an editorial in the FT I read yesterday wrote "What is sauce for the Kosovo gander is also sauce for the Ossetian Goose". The FT being one of the few newspapers I consider to be objective in its reporting and analysis.

You really must be paranoid to think the Russia or its government wants to charge into former republics like Ukraine or the Baltic states. Either that or you think Medvedev and Putin are thick. Russia might like the Crimea back but to think they would risk a full blow war over it. Like Sky says Russia takes the long view. Ukraine has elections soon, Yushenko is unpopular and half of Ukraine is ethnic Russian.

Skybird has made good points here and fairly analysed them and dissected them. All you seem to be able to do is just regurgitate the same speil that is deep rooted in your dislike for Russia and Russians. Putin is no Hitler, and I wouldn't call him a dictator. Have you been to Russia recently? I have and hey I didn't see any sign of a dictatorship, didn't see anyone walking in fear or people afraid to talk about events or criticise the Kremlin. I'm sure you'll point out the Kremlin squashing certain newspapers and TV stations, but you think the Russians just get info by that. There are plenty of Russian publications available via the net and other sources, and I have not seen any move to have them shut down, no web filtering a la China.

http://lenta.ru/news/2008/08/28/abkhaz/

Abhazia's minister of international affairs says that they will not be part of Russia.

It doesn't look like Russia is going to get what they wanted from China. Before I went to bed last night, many news outlets were jumping the gun saying Medvedev is reporting such support from China. I've read everything from this meeting and it was tepid at best. And showed a more neutral stance for peace and security in the region. It was also very non-specific. But one thing is clear, it showed no actual support for Russia's position at all. Why? Because like I said before. If China begins to recognize break-away states in the Caucuses, that screws up their position with Taiwan, Tibet, etc.

And you make a good point here KS. This will bring unwanted hostilities to China if they were to misalign themselves by backing Russia here in totality. I don't think china's willing to do it for that reason as well.


No.....Mr. Putin is no dictator. No...not at all. He's only set himself up to remain in power as Prime Minister and has moved to shift powers he once held as President, to the Prime Minister's office. But no, He's no dictator. And we just love how those people who seem to oppose Mr. Putin seem to be on the receiving end of a nice little poison pill. Yeah, Xabba....great guy.:roll:

On other fronts, Skybird has made no good points at all. He has positioned Russia in a advantageous role, where none exists for Russia here. Russia has stupidly made things come to pass for themselves that they desperately did not want. And there's more to come. They have over-estimated the support they would get from China, not being able to see the realities there. And yet they continue. If they're looking at the long term through their current actions, then Russia has very stupid leadership. They're digging themselves into a big hole, and yet getting nothing for it. Even today one of the so called break-aways have said they won't be a part of Russia. I don't think Russia is thinking at all.....they're posturing. And theyre not getting any positive results from it. They're simply making enemies and putting themselves into a position of total isolation.

Putin meanwhile has accused the US to have intended the outbreak of violence for purpose of helping one of the US candidates.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe...war/index.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7586605.stm


there are several points that prevent this being wiped off the table too easily.

1. there is at least one case that could work as a precedent. during the Iran-hostage crisis, Republicans had established a secret deal with Iran to not free the hostages before the elections had been held and Reagun won against Carter. that way, Carter was prevented from taking advantage of the PR success of being the one politician who brought home america'S hostages. reagan was celebrated for having freed the hostages, while Carters months of work were minimised, and his role ridiculed. He got betrayed by the Republican party by use of dirty tricks that went at the cost of those american hostages who could have been freed much earlier.

2. Rice is reported to have send contradciting signals, saying she had warned Georgia's Uber-Trottel Saakashvilli of using force, but obviously the warnings fell on deaf ears - if internally such warnings ever were given for sure. It would not be the first time that a female diplomat sends contradicting signals to a foreign regime (remember Hussein 1990). If that was intentional, or not, we will never be allowed to know.

3. As a matter of fact, there have been and there are american troops present in Georgia, before the war there were 150 advisors and around 1000 combat troops joining in maneuvres with Georgian troops - who after the maneuver did not move back into their barracks, but immediately from the maneuver ground relocated to their attack positions from which they launched their assault just weeks later. Same was true for Russian troops conducting exercises at the same time - they too did not return home but relocated into psoitions from which they could reach the peacekeeopers in the province quickly. As the following chronic argues, there is no reason how anyone oin europe could have gooten surprised by the outbreak of war. That so many were surprised indeed shows the widespread dilletantism of today's spectacular and competent political leaders.
They SHOULD have seen it coming, really.

4. Fact is that Washington wants to advance into Russia's Caucasean backyard at all cost, no matter how, to create a breach from where to bring even more pressure onto Russian interests and options, to cover geostrategic interests and pipelines in the region, and pushing the Russians even more against the wall by making NATO standing at their borders in the Caucasean region as well. Saakashvilli for this is just a tool. America claims worldwide validity of American ideas - and this brutal arrogance is the real problem here, and is the real motor behind NATO's aggressive expansionism.

In this conflict, america is as much concerned about democracy and freedom for Georgia, as is Russia really interested in the fate of the South Ossetians. Both these reasons given are just salvos in the propaganda war. That'S why the US is lining up with such a hysteric idiot like Saakashvilli who is everything but a democratic or competent ruler, and that is why the Kremlin so stubbornly defends it's stand in the region against American demands to claim it for the West, which means nothing else than: for American influence. "Democracy", and "independence for supressed Ossetians" in the end have nothing to do with both nation's true interests. Only hopeless idealists and determined nationalists, who uncritically embrace everything their countries say and do, can seriously believe these popular fairy-tales.

Intelligence operations - their major duty is not to guard against the enemy, but to deceive the own public, and hindering it to know what it should not know, without letting the public ever realise that it got manipulated into believing what it should believe.

This thing has been cooking a little longer than the invasion of Georgia. Last year were the riots and attacks against Estonia etc.. FSBs agents have been busy bees for a long time.

They are thick, thats evident allready. They have now shown that when FSB cant deliver, the Army goes in. Yet they failed with that also, as Shakavili is still in power, im sure Vladimir is biting his nails.

Skybird is very intelligent and i respect him, but that doesnt meen he couldnt be partially or totally wrong. In an earlier thread he explained his vision of the future.

"Currently, russian investements are buying off Western corporation shares like crazy, with incredible sums of money. Only the Gulf states and china surpass them. They seem to follow the same tactic like the Gulf States and Saudi Arabia: biting off a big enough share of western industry to have a word in its control and in the future, when they run thin on oil and gas (we are talking 20, 30 years btw), they will shave off the cream from industrial profits they make with ex-western companies that are not so exclusively western-owned, then. Then WE will work for THEM, and for the Arabs. Serves us right, stupidly bragging as we do."

"So let's see who will grin wider in the end. I don't bet my money on the West. We need them more than they need us - and that is a bad start to begin a match with."

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...=141010&page=2

This is something i am positive will never happen. EU and US will not let it happen and contrary to Skys belief, they dont have to. So we disagree, not much to argue after that is established.


And accusing me of racism and fasicm is getting old, i am neither and i hope people start to back these claims up with proof.



Ive never heard that Third Reich was a bad place for Nazis either.
In a modern world its hard to have exatcly the same kind of dictatorship as you had in the 40s. Critisising Kremlin privatly isnt a threat to them, but im sure it will stop many careers and opportunities. A threat it becomes when one tries to get this message out through politics or dissidency. Political rights and civil liberties are almost gone in Russia and the trend isnt up. You must know that the free media you claim is plenty, doesnt reach practically anyone in Russia, hence it isnt a threat.

I cant believe Skybird that you would suggest this is part of McCains campaign?:o

There have been many scandals in america'S political games, but the more serious and dirty tricks have been played by Republicans. The Iran hostage story. Watergate. Oliver North and the Contras. Iraq.

There is nothing I do not think they are capable of. Politics is a dirty business, cynism and lies are considered to be good tone. The glorious speeches are just for the crowd. Never trust them.

Panem et circensis.

Regarding Putin'S accusation - as I said, if he is right, then we will not be allowed to know. And if he is wrong, we will not know either. He has interferred with the US elections before in 2004, claiming he had evidence for Irqi nukes. that way he helped Bush being elected.