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If you buy no add-on... you are doomed to live on 1.4 PATCH. Even though people with an add-on get PATCHED as well as having EXTRA CONTENT. Sorry for my caps, but it is becoming difficult to have any form of discussion here recently without some sort of debacle. With the instigation of the GU.exe file, I thought they may have been leaning towards a dynamic online patch system. So far this is not the case. I'm not whinging or having a cry here, just stating a reality. If anyone thinks i'm making things up and stating lies, then knock yourself out and say so. |
Ok yeah, THAT is a stupid system, but I thought your logic was that people were paying for a patch (as in the expansion is nothing more than a patch), but I agree that people with 1.4 shouldn't be left behind. Has there been any official word on what happens with patches from now on? As in, is it officail that they are leaving 1.4 behind unless you buy the add-on.
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One of the developers was in this thread when you first mis-understood me. Don't worry, it happens everytime he visits, I say something, then someone says something to me and starts some sort of debate, then the developer leaves. Can't blame him really.
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What developer was here? Let me at him :D
Its not that people "live/reside" in threads, you know? |
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For those who don't understand the Fleetboat vs Uboat thing, I offer this perspective:
Sometime when i was a kid, i picked up the book "Submarine!" by Edward Beach. I read the stories, and something inside me was hooked. I then started reading up on more books. It was like reading and adventure story, only it was true. I wasn't even a teenager yet, and i knew ALOT of technical details about Fleet boats. I felt confident in being able to walk through one, and identify by sight, what 90% of the things onboard. (years later i proved this to myself when i visted the USS Drum). Such was my passion as a kid, that, i played "Silent Service" on the old 8 bit nintendo with graph paper, a ruler, compass, and protractor. The "real" game to me, was getting it all plotted out on paper. Sometime, later, after i got over my Doom kick, i discovered Aces of the Deep. Disappointed it was these uboats, which at the time i knew nothing about, but it was a new sub sim none the less, and i played the hell out of it because it gave a more immersive enviorment at that level of tech. When SIilent Hunter 1 arrived, i dropped AOD like a brick. Unfortunatlyl, as much as i still loved fleet boats, Sh1 just didnt grab me. It, compared to AOD, was too cut and dry, and it was buggy. I didn't play it all that much. I think i was burnt out from AOD. So, i kept faithfully buying the "patrol disks" but never really played that much, and i couldnt force myself to go back to AOD. In the end, i just moved on to other games and gave it a rest. When SH2 arrived, i passed. More uboats, and i just wasnt ready to get back into sub simming yet. When Sh3 arrived, i looked at the box, and was dissappointed. Uboats yet again! What ever happened to my beloved Gato? I couldnt "get" why game makers kept making uboat sims with such fantastic tales to relive in the pacifc. However at this time i was ready to get back into sub sims, and i picked up SH3 with the thoguht, "well, its better then nothing i guess". So for years i played Sh3, and made the most of it. Anyone who knows me from this community knows i ALWAYS played ini type 9's. Or was always ranging to the furthers areas. Why? Because it was the closest experience id get to being in a fleet submarine. I tried type 7's and they never "grabbed ". Always was my urge to go to far off lands - just like a fleet boat. So finally here comes SH4. FINALLY! From The book "Submarine" to my sh3 patrols, this is what ive REALLY been looking for. I've endured uboats for years, but always in want of my "true love" in subs. What got me into subs to begin with. Tales from the pacific. So i have alot of vested interest in this game. Its been 12 years since the last time a sub sim has been in the pacfic (SH 1) - TWELVE YEARS! In all that time, its been, uboat, uboat, and uboat. Ive waited 12 years for this game - arguably longer, so imagine my feelings when i fire up the game, and see a Uboat adorning the loading screen. I think all of this, has probably been the true driving force behind why ive kept modding, and why i have such an extreme stance with the game. I dont expect people to approve of my attitude about this topic, but it would be nice if people understood where im coming from with it. |
Amen Ducimus. That is what I've been saying, only I don't write as well. I've not been playing near as long but I bought the game for Fleetboats, not U-Boats.
BTW, Great to see you back.:yep: |
Hey Ducimus thanks for the background on the U-boats thing. I have not been around very long and it helped me to get a handle on the background. Yeah I know the fascination of playing the baddy. I'd been to see the U-505 a number of times as a tadpole. Crampt quarters to say the least. I also understand the saga and demise of the (what turned out to be) unsuccessful U-boat campaign is well known, where as the more successful US campaign of fleetboats was slower in coming out, since it was from the winning side (not dissing U-boats here at all: history is written by the victors).
LukeFF was nice enough to post a link to the story of the Indian Ocean U-boats. Really interesting stuff, but I'm not near finished exploring fleet boats yet. The attrition rates on those boats is pretty high, but considering the distance they were travelling I guess that increases the chances of things happening. Some time I certainly will, but not very soon. The book you mentioned I will be seeing about at my local library some time soon though. Ducimus thanks for sharing your passion with the community. N00bs like me really appreciate it. Triad |
Like Dan says, there's room in that virtual ocean for all of us; whichever boat you like.
I like the fact that on Saturday morning I can raid Scapa Flow with a Uboat in the beautiful SH4 engine (Because there will be a north Atlantic campaign soon); and Sunday morning I can motor out of Pearl Harbor under a US flag heading to raise some hell in the Sea of Japan. I'm okay with the best of both worlds. I just want a great sub sim, and I think we have one. Keep your chin up Dan. Cheers all. |
I'm holding the "both sides will continue on" flag. I think we're divided into three groups: Diehard Atlantic fans, diehard Pacific fans, and those who pick the side de jour.
I used to be in the atlantic campground. Now that SH4 has had a chance to mature... I'm thinking I'm gonna stick to the Pacific. I'm comfortable with whatever the rest of y'all do, as long as the Pacific doesn't get neglected. And judging from the concern we've seen, and comments from some of the modders (*cough*Duci*cough*), I doubt the Pacific will get neglected. There is one possible benefit that nobody has pointed out yet, I believe (feel free to correct me, so I can give credit where credit's due. Prior to the SH4 add-on, anybody in the Atlantic camp had to stick to SH3... so any improvements/mods being created had to be in SH3. The Pacific guys were obviously working on SH4. While some basic concepts still apply to both SHs when modding, there's obviously quite a bit of difference, too. Now that the add-on's released, we don't have that situation any more. The Atlantic guys can do their thing, the Pacific guys can do theirs, too... but now they're working in the same engine. If the Pacific guys find a better way of doing something, the Atlantic guys can benefit from it. Vice versa applies, too. Assuming the two groups don't pull some four year old politickin', draw a line in the middle of the sandbox, and refuse to play with each other. I'm rather hoping we're above that stage of our lives, however. |
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Who's making it? |
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I had heard discussion before of how some modders fear a 'mod soup', I say bull to that, the more modders discuss, the better we all get and the more seamless our mods will become. Why do people form teams to do large projects, thats right. So in relation to your hopes Luckyone, it is already a reality to a large extent. And i'm sure I speak for many modders here, when I say it would be great if it only got better. |
American Subs, German Subs? Modding American? Modding German. Last time there was co-operation we landed on the moon. Only good can come of this… and to the devs... thank you. Loving it.
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Now, the fundamental change in SH3 came about with the advent of the first 'SuperMods' RuB & IUB where, if every file change or advancement was discussed/openly shared in the community, the authors would spend 100% of their time in User Support mode. Fast forward nearly 2 years and you find GWX at the forefront, however even this mod is subject to the same restrictions in terms of 'openness' of file changes etc. You can imagine what it would be like to explain Hex changes, Dat Nodes etc to anyone that will listen. Hell, some users can't even manage a clean installation.:lol: I will say this openly, give SH4 time to develop as it is now but eventually a 'Supermod' will come along with a multitude of file changes that by any stretch of the imagination cannot validate/explain/share all the changes and how they were done. It's natural evolution. It's happened before, it will happen again. Oh, and FYI, SH3 & SH4 are both 'Open Source' with the tools currently available. Users just need to do their homework.:yep: Anything a prospective modder could need or want is somewhere on the Subsim Forums. |
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The problem we're probably running across is when someone wants to tweak the supermod... "Gee, I installed this super mod, then I installed this mod, and then that mod" and that's when things break, users get irritated (and high & mighty, I deal with the general public and their interactions with computers, lemme tell ya... high & mighty doesn't describe it sometimes), and that gets the modder's feather fluffed up. The only way I see beating this tendency is to know it, and avoid it. Yeah, modders are busy... but the rest of us experienced folk (maybe not us... you experienced folk?) on the forums can probably handle basic file comparisons, seeing what mods overwrite what... maybe we need a few folks to volunteer to help sort out mod conflicts, and document what's what. Does that sound at all realistic, reasonable, and likely to work? |
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If a group of modders does it this way (it happens all the time even by a team as small as 2 modders), that's ok, but I'm just saying you don't 'have' to. I agree there's no point in documenting every single change made for a mod. However, what would be great is if certain new discovered technologies/tricks/hacks are documented/discussed, during or even after they have been implemented/released. This can be seperate from the mod itself in dedicated [TEC] type threads or tutorials. This way there's no need for others to reinvent it. And while such documentation may not be understood by everyone, there's always a few that will. In all truth I had a real hard time developing S3D in the first 6 months, for the lack of public documentation of the file formats (after 2+ years SH3?!), and most public threads that did exist where incomplete, or partially incorrect. So I had to debug most of it myself. A good example is just a couple of days ago where privateer offered me the specs of animation data. In the end sharing is the only way forward. :up: Back on topic, I can appreciate the addon for what it offers us. New features and choice. How the pacific will be pushed aside I don't see. People that enjoyed the pacific played SH4, those that enjoyed uboats played SH3. This will change to: people that enjoy the pacific play SH4_1.4/1.5 US campaign/mods, and people that enjoy uboats play SH3/SH4_1.5 uboat campaign/mods (and of course the group that plays both). All the same to me... |
@ skwasjer
I agree (in principle), however with large supermods, closed beta testing is the only sensible way to conduct development. With closed testing, the testers can be hand picked for their personal understanding of how the (SH3/SH4) game works. For example, what good is a tester that flags every stock bug up to the devs because he/she does not know what is fixable/unfixable. I, for one, would not like to keep track of numerous threads and hundreds/thousands of user reports. If you like, you could compare GWX 2.0 to an open BETA test as the current development of 2.1 is incorporating user identified issues as well as containing new content. Until the Dev crew feels their work is ready for the public, it's much easier to contain the discovered issues on a private forum and within a small testing crew. Now, having said that, your editing tool is revolutionary in the history of the SH series and as such, the issues you have encountered have only been touched upon briefly in the past. So I can understand the frustration you must have encountered during development. As far as I can tell, your tool (most basic analogy) combines all the required tools (Pack3d, Hex Edit, Text Extract & MiniTweaker) for file adjustments that 'joe' user could possibly need, effectively making every user a possible modder with a minimal knowledge requirement of what does what. As for sharing discovered knowledge, I feel that this happens, however, there are only a few modders in the SH3 field who are still pushing the boundarys of what's possible and they choose to do this via PM or email, rather than dumbfounding the rest of us dummies with the details.:lol: Quote:
I guess guys, time will tell. |
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