Penolope,

I love surface attacks,
I hate foggy & bad weathers. Torpedoes go off before impact frequetly in bad weathers and fog brings too much surprises. But i will try your suggestion.

I didnt know that silent speed was useful on surface?? AFAIK, silent speed is restricted with 3 knots. (and This is also valid for surface conditions, is that not?) aint this cripples your manuever flexibilty?

You say, cruise with tubes open, what is the draw back of it? does it affect your speed? fuel consumption?

@Markshot, As I understand, you suggest running away while surfaced is more advantageous during night strikes? with low speed i guess? This will surely ruin ones nerves :doh:

How to know what is the visibilty rate, say on a regular night with moon?

Another question, might be off topic; what is the max. depth a torpedo can be fired?

thnx markshot, I heard of that tric before. Might try it tonight, I found a small convoy with two nice targets in.

@MENTAT

I didn't mean silent speed on the surface lol. I meant engage silent running so your men keep quiet. Its handy as well because in a crash dive scenario you are already silent so saves you one thing.

But more often than not, I just use silent running on the surface to stop my watch crew yelling "Ship Spotted" at me.

On the surface you use ahead slow. Which on a VII is about 7 knots, fast enough, if you go too fast, you make yourself more spotable.

There is no draw back to manually opening your tubes before you shoot. Far as I know, they close automatically after you fire.

Also use the shallow depth meter if needbe to put the boat low in the water. So a Type VII's normal surface trim is 5m, you put it at 6m for example and she will run low in the water, that is very handy to reduce your chances of being seen.

The enemy only listens for you when you are submerged. Now, if a storm if you are out of viz range ... how do you know for sure ... well, if you cannot see them, then they cannot see you ... also you will still be getting random hydrophone contacts due to huge swells ... viz is going to be under 1,000M. So, if you hold an escort at long or medium range, he/she is not going to see you.

Then, I say go to flank. Maximum displacement in minimum time.

By the way, I also think torpedos should be set to run a couple of meters deeper in storms to avoid broaching and going off track, but that is just speculation, I have no serious research behind that.

But aint they hear your engines roaming with hydrophone checks? :o

Do they use hydrophones and sonar together by the way?

They can't use both together, and both are useless on the surface... (I think)

Indeed I do not have the impression that they will detect you at the surface with hydrophone so they do not work then. I think it is merely sighting what is the problem. Diesel will make more noise than electrocal engines but still you can approach a convoy to about 1.5 km undetected at the surface. Trouble start when the fishes start to hit targets when you still at the surface.

The whole point ... in a storm at night those explosions are not problem. You are practically invisible without radar. You can stay on the surface and maneuver at significant speed. The last thing you want to do is dive and provide the escorts with a means to locate you.

Even if they do get lucky to get visual contact on you, then as I have said dive, get enough separation to be outside of visual range and, then, surface and run for it while they continue circling where you went down.

I've done this. A severe storm at night is the most amazing boost to the lethality and stealth of your boat.

Are you really immune to hydrophones while surfaced? If you are, it doesnt make much sense to me as i can detect surfaced vessels by hydrophone. I don't get it :88)

Good point Nuoz, that's something that doesn't ad up.

I performed a surface attack today. Found myself a good firing position, came to a stop, shot the torpedo's and started moving towards the convoy with a spare torpedo, ready to finish any victims of.

I was surprised about how quickly they saw me. Only 3 seconds after impact, and the bullets where allready flying... Sure, it was open sky, but don't they need to find you with the spotlights first?

Hi Nuoz, I'm not saying you are immune and I will not advice to run flank at 1.5 km from the merchants but if the enemies hydrophones do work as well as ours we would be easily detected from miles and miles away and surface attacks would be impossible for sure.

While running slow or standard a surface approach with some waves and dark night it is very well possible.

Sebbe02, that 3 seconds is visual contact after you wakened them up a little bit... The point with surface attacks is the escape after the torpedoes hit. The best way to set up the attack is to torp a distant target and while the fishes are running start aiming at a nearby target so all torpedoes start exploding when you have already started the escape. With a surface attack that is a bit difficult as the nearest target is 1.5 km away etc. Still it is a shame that they do find you that easily.

Just to be clear, I am talking about attacking at night, overcast skies, winds at 15M, and rain is good too. Either my SH3/GWX installation is hosed or under such circumstances, you are invisible. Even for you to spot merchants you need to first close to about 600-500M. However, after the spotting, then you can probably hold the visual contact up to about 800M.

Now, if you attack on the surface on a clear bright moonlit night with winds at 0 meters, you are definitely going to get what is coming to you.

I would add the finer points maybe In her first attack she induced
simultaneous detonation of her first two torps. Practicing enough
with the timing differentials of torp tracks fore and aft fast and slow
at well practiced range estimates allows simultaneous or near
simultaneous detonations of all torps. done at enough range.
this type of Strike First Strike Fast Strike hard technique, can
have you well on the way to a total evasion before the escorts
are aware of your presence as well as prohibiting late evasive
maneuvers on the targets. Using oblique firing angles
for and aft shots alternately fast and slow torps and differentiated
target ranges are the techniques that need to be practiced.
simultaneous detonations of six torps in sh3 and Potentially ten in sh4
is one very satisfying experience. My best is seven with a three out of
synch in sh4. all six in sh3 I have done many times albeit this is not
really for manual shooting.

p.s. Hi Jack.

M
of all

And that will be the new level to be reached by us all: surface attack + simultaneous detonation.

Not to brag or anything, but.... um.... I managed it! :D

Still, they found me way too fast!

I tought you guys went in with a spare torp to try to torp anything on point blank range:D Guess not...

I certainly don't know how you get away with a night surface attack. I have never been successful at it yet.

I have a large convoy on a dark night, just on the ledge of 1000 m keel. It has a Clemson, a V&W and 3 Flower Corvettes. I am having problems. That Clemson is leading and is a pain, and when I sink it to get in, or if I don't sink it to get at the merchants and also full of neutrals (1940) all the escorts come-a-running.

Rob

Hmm,

If the leading escort is a hassle, you might want to try a shot from in front of the convoy as follows.

you are of course decks awash at 7 meters, otherwise, do this first:D

the following trick is doable with manual targeting provided you know the convoys course and speed. AOB can be calculated from that and you can do shots like described below.

position yourself about 3km in front of the convoy, and about 1500m off the outer row closest to you. and perpendicular to their course. then turn the boat about 20 degrees towards them. you will now be in position to shoot at several of the leading ships in one quick series. you'll have to use magnetics though because of bad AOB for impact. then pick 2 of the leading ships, if possible in the middle of the convoy.

you should start shooting when the farthest ship you'll target is about at 350 degrees, the lead escort shout bear between 0 and 10 now

If they're in range for electrics, that's 3500 meters, use those, if not use steamers at medium speed, then fire at the farthest ship first, then the nearer, for tankers use 2 eels for cargos just one. you should now have one electric eel left with the closest ship being the lead escort, if this hasn't seen you yet and is moving slowly in a straight line, fire your electric at it, for a Clemson set it to 5 meters magnetic. If not, don't bother fire the eel at the closest merchant you haven't yet fired on. Then do a quick 180 and out of there, with the lead escort bearing 210 on your rear, if you're feeling aggresive, you might try firing your rear tube at the leading ship of the outer row which by now should be on a nice gyroangle, I usually don't but it could be done, then keep up that course at 8knots or so until the first fish hits, this should be the lead escort. Ideally the two ships you targeted earlier should be hit almost simultaneously, it works out that way because the distance the eels need to travel is shorter for the second ship and the escort but the eels were fired later. I haven't got the maths to prove it but doing this by seat-of-the-pants calculation has worked several times for me.

If the lead escort is hit it will sink, maybe not immediately, depends on where it's hit but it's out of the fight. You now have a window to escape, go to 12 or more knots same course as the convoy but angling away from it a little to get as far away from the lead flanker as possible. If they don't have radar, you'll get away clean.

If the lead escort does not get sunk it will head towards the point where you fired from, keep your stern pointed at him and stay at 8 knots or so, with any luck you'll be far enough away to not be found, if detected, (starshelled, searlighted or plain fired upon) crashdive and do the whole underwater evasion routine

good luck and good hunting :up:

edit; didn't see the bit about the neutrals...damn that doesn't help. my thoughts: shoot them anyway they're not supposed to be in a convoy anyway!

This is basically what I have"

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9691/convoysx3.jpg

Rob

and I get the s****t knocked out of me :damn: 3 out of 5 times. I've only been able to get the tanker and C2 in the front row before I get attacked. One of the neutrals is a passenger liner in the third row

You mention to take out the Clemson using magnetic at 5 m depth. It's draft is only 2.8 so I have been trying to use 3.3 m