That is what the Secret Service is there to find. It's called an investigation which is the Secret Service's task under the law.

If you don't like the law, call your duely elected representatve and have the law changed. Oops, I'm sorry you are from another country and cannot vote or petition your representatve, you get your jollies criticizing the US.

How's that Italian Mafia treating you? Clean up your own house, then come and criticize ours.

What has gone wrong in our societies that we are so much afraid of our CHILDREN...? And no, a 14 year old is not to be expected to be fully aware of all her actions, and consequences. Even the law of western nations recognizes that, and differs below and above age of criminal responsebility, which usually is an age of 18, I think. I disagree with Takeda when he said that she is fully self-aware - at 14, you usually are not. I still wait to see a 14 year old to be like that, I frankly admit that I was not at that age, and did a lot of things and had not always realistic images on my mind what consequences it could eventually have.

What is wrong in our societies that children so often make it into our headlines? A little girl planning saying "kill the president". 16 or 18 year old that runs amok in schools and really kills people at random - and I doubt that they were mentally "clear" when doing that, and fully self-aware - the simple fact that they commited these deeds, and killed at random is a very strong indicator for me that they were not. Something has poisend their minds, somewhat.

But also the other way around: what is going wrong in our socieities that children so often become victims of adults, and even their parents? Germany currently is shocked by a whole series of cases where parents from socially critical families killed their children, even babies, with incredible brutality and cruelty, while the social offices failed due to lacking financial support, in many cases. What's going wrong there? We send soldiers around the globe in wars whose purposes are highly questionable, we spend millions and millions on nonsens events and for stupid things - but we fail on offering our own children living amongst us a worthy perpective for life? News stories of child abuses are almost regular daily news nowadays. Children get sold like regular goods, and get sold into slavery, and systematical sexual abuse for money. And we tend to deal children as potential criminals, plan to collect genetical material of them, and plan for even more governmental control over lifes, biographies, private lifes, from even younger years on, not even thinking about the many well-founded concerns about how such data could be abused by insurance companiesl. for example, or employers.

But isn't there more to it? Where does it lead? Towards a society where total control is tolerated in the name of total security? Why is total security needed so much, since in earlier times, such things seem to have happened less often? What kind of mentality will be formed, if a society accepts such measures more and more? What independence of a mind and individual can be expected to develope over the years, if the state becomes so powerful, and an individual doesnT know it any different? Total acceptance of totalitarian mechanisms? What does it mean for military policies, such an attitude that sacrifices more and more freedom for security? Total war to enforce total peace? the more we try to defend peace, the more militaristic we have become over recent years. We think we have good reason to accept that, becasue of terror and the like - but where does it lead to? are our demands maybe just - too total? The stronger our fist, the more sand we loose between our fingers, it is said in a saying. we implement more and more control and security, we cut back freedoms more and more. We more and more think in terms of black and white, total security or total war, no in-between. The other has to bend to our will, or we threaten war on him. and the other side does the same.

We are afraid of our children, we fear for our children, and more and more often we abuse and mistreat and murder children. what is it that is going terribly wrong here? Isn't there something most important, something very vital and essential missing? Less and lesser western families even raise children. fertility problems cannot explain this. It is our living style, our social environemnt, our jobs. Our society has become a hostile environment for children. children can no longer take it for granted that their parents are really fulfilling this function. The institution of families more and more is falling apart.

At the same time we misidentify the roots of these misdevelopements, and more and more governmental interference takes place, and is even demkanded. That way, future citizens more and more are raised in a habit and awareness of accepting to be dependant from the state - in that way like Northamericans often criticise European nations: socialist nanny-state, it is often called. And there is a growing ammount of truth in it. The influence of the socialists and political left becomes stronger and stronger in europe. People fall for it, for the state promises all-inclusive-care-taking, at the cost of higher and higher state deficits. It ruins the nations, but ensures loyalty of voters - idle voters who mislearn the ability not to depend on governmental care-taking. They become more and more dependant. And that means: controllable.

I often complained that I see western democracies failing and being turned into oligarchies (Europe) and plutocracies (US, and later europe as well), and nthat the traditonal state is dying and it's responsebilities and poers are takien over by private interest groups of incrtedible power and financial potency. but since some time I also see a differen trend, and in a worrying manner they seem to work hand in hand: a trend that bhides between well-meaning and good intention, that appeals to reason and wishes to be considerd as a kind, reasonable and fully-integrated friendly guy, but that löeads towards totalitarian control of society by what the state is transformed into, and that is not the type or idea of nation/state that we have grown up with. And although the final outcome is not clear, by pure instinct I feel alarmed by this developement, for my instinct tells me that it is a very severe threat that is developing.

This is the context that made me aware of that story with that girl "planning" to kill Bush. It is no america-bashing, but I perceive it as a symptom only for something very different.I don't like the way our societies are heading. Every quantum of my instincts tell me only one message: "Danger".

For crying out loud peole use paragraphs, my eyes hurt from trying to read blocks of information all at once.

Isn't there something most important, something very vital and essential missing?

Morals, self-reliance, education, and lack of experience to name a few.

what is going wrong in our socieities that children so often become victims of adults, and even their parents?

Evil children who became parents, and raised evil children in turn. Add to this the lack and even the hate of a rigid moral standard, and an instilled knowledge between right and wrong, to love truth and hate injustice. Add still more the encouragement from those who hate truth and love an "independent" life that "you" control "yourself" and that none may instruct you how to live. Call them graqndfathers, call them teachers, call them professors, call them politicians, they're all the same.

Without guidance, blindness. Without morals, injustice. Without compassion, cruelty and brutality. Without love, hate. Without reason, insanity.This is the face of the future, look upon it, and mourn over what has been lost. Weep over the lost innocence of youth, and be terrified at the cruelty of the young. Reside in fear of your children as they hate your ideals and ways of life, even to murder you without gain. Be without peace as many lie in wait to seize you and kill you. As the sun sets, and the moon rises, so it has become the cycle of horror. Horrors without an end in sight. We are witness to the failures of our forefathers, and it is we who now reap that which was sown. Never lose hope.

thanks skybird for making spaces, as i can read it now:up:

It is the board software, it gives me troubles when using this forum. I totally and absolutely HATE it. Means double work, often.

however, an opportunity to fix some typos :lol:

To the contrary, I do believe that traumatic events along with psychological warping can, do, and will drive people to the brink of insanity and beyond. This has been proven time and again with numerous serial murderers, sociopaths, and others.

How one is raised affects everything afterwards. And the human mind is pliable for only so long before it is nearly unchangeable.

In fact, I just finished reading the horrifying biography of Mary Bell. And indeed, one can most certainly blame her upbringing and lack of guidance and support for what inevitably became the result of the actions of a child of such upbringings.

I'll help Skybird put paragraphs on his post. :D EDIT: Damn he beat me to it. :88)

That's why she was arrested and not prosecuted. If she's prosecuted then you have a big case and I'll take your side too.

Yes it goes both ways, the children of today are the parents of tomorrow. Look at the bright side: if this girl ever has children, I bet she won't allow them to repeat this behavior. :D

The will to kidnap children from their parents and family to put them under the guard of the state goes back many decades. Seems that only now the ground is opening for such kind of policy.

That's how it works. We must always surrender something in return for a promised benefit that in the end will turn out to be no benefit at all and by then it will be too late to call fraud.

You're looking at it from a rational perspective. :lol: Yes nobody needs video-cameras, microphones and video-walls inside classrooms nor radio leashes attached to the neck of the students and biometric profiling.

Submissive. Vassal of the vassal.

None. We need to break the monopoly. Parents, organize your own elite micro-schools for 5 or 10 pupils and use home-schooling laws to your advantage.

Now would be a good time for the Danish members to open their mouth. I remember a Danish woman I met in Copenhagen many years ago who bragged about the lack of pesky children running around and making noise at the streets of the city. Lame excuse, we have nanny shows on the TV, we have the internet, this kind of solution, removing or hiding children to get rid of the noise, is ridiculous, I wonder if that woman, when she wants to check her make-up, attempts to plug her eyes out of their sockets to hold them in her hands and look back at her face with them. I prefer to see children on the streets. It feels alot more natural to have smaller beings walking or happily running around than empty streets. Life is beautiful, there's no replacement for children's laughter. And if there's no children, who's going to be taxed to death to pay for your public services? Oh don't worry, we can always raise taxes to 95%.

So original. :zzz:

And mislearn never to trust their government & politicians! Enlightened despots don't last very long and have a terribly predictable tendency to leave only Darkness to the future generations. This is how republics are destroyed, in laughter and applause.

We can't handle the plutocracies well. Nobody has predicted the rise of 'meta-capitalists' who are done with capitalism, free market and risk management now that they are swimming in millions and want to use the state to protect them from risk and stop others from playing capitalist too adding that annoying thing called competition.

Indeed. Something's cooking.

Didn't I mentioned something about mislearning not to trust the government up there?

The pessimist does not offer bright rainbows, does not paint beautiful pictures and has no compelling dreams to share, however, he does not murder nor kills by the millions.

It's very serious when someone threatens the president. At 14, even though a minor, she is old enough to have known better and is quite capable at that age to do harm to anyone, which, by the way, does happen from time to time from kids that seem as innocent as her.

Until she was questioned and the situation investigated, many people wouldn't have known how serious or not so serious it was.

So, as standard procedure, it was resolved with no harm done.

End of story. :know:

but of course that won't go over with some people and they will continue to say 'tourture' 'interrogate' and 'imprisoned'

-I say that the SS (seceret service, not the Nazis) did a very very good job! keep it up.

And it's been shown that pessimists have a more accurate view of world events too! :D

(just a min. while I try to find the study)

Sry, couldn't find it but I remember a study claiming that pessimists had more accurate perceptions of events as opposed to optimists (fancy that eh?).

very fancy! (wonder who came up with that?)

You stumble in the dark Skybird and refuse to see the light...and your not alone.

Men Loved Darkness Rather Than Light, Because Their Deeds Were Evil


Job 24:12 Men groan from out of the city, and the soul of the wounded crieth out: yet God layeth not folly to them.
13 They are of those that rebel against the light; they know not the ways thereof, nor abide in the paths thereof.
14 The murderer rising with the light killeth the poor and needy, and in the night is as a thief.
15 The eye also of the adulterer waiteth for the twilight, saying, No eye shall see me: and disguiseth his face.
16 In the dark they dig through houses, which they had marked for themselves in the daytime: they know not the light.
17 For the morning is to them even as the shadow of death: if one know them, they are in the terrors of the shadow of death.
Psalms 74:19 O deliver not the soul of thy turtledove unto the multitude of the wicked: forget not the congregation of thy poor for ever.
20 Have respect unto the covenant: for the dark places of the earth are full of the habitations of cruelty.

Proverbs 7:4 Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy kinswoman:
5 That they may keep thee from the strange woman, from the stranger which flattereth with her words.
6 For at the window of my house I looked through my casement,
7 And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding,
8 Passing through the street near her corner; and he went the way to her house,
9 In the twilight, in the evening, in the black and dark night:
10 And, behold, there met him a woman with the attire of an harlot, and subtil of heart.
11 (She is loud and stubborn; her feet abide not in her house:
12 Now is she without, now in the streets, and lieth in wait at every corner.)
13 So she caught him, and kissed him, and with an impudent face said unto him,
14 I have peace offerings with me; this day have I payed my vows.
15 Therefore came I forth to meet thee, diligently to seek thy face, and I have found thee.
16 I have decked my bed with coverings of tapestry, with carved works, with fine linen of Egypt.
17 I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon.
18 Come, let us take our fill of love until the morning: let us solace ourselves with loves.
19 For the goodman is not at home, he is gone a long journey:
20 He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the day appointed.
21 With her much fair speech she caused him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forced him.

Isaiah 29:15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?
16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

Ezekiel 8:7 And he brought me to the door of the court; and when I looked, behold a hole in the wall.
8 Then said he unto me, Son of man, dig now in the wall: and when I had digged in the wall, behold a door.
9 And he said unto me, Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here.
10 So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about.
11 And there stood before them seventy men of the ancients of the house of Israel, and in the midst of them stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan, with every man his censer in his hand; and a thick cloud of incense went up.
12 Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, the LORD seeth us not; the LORD hath forsaken the earth.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

Consider a moment a creature....let's call him Satan...who had lived with God for.. um I don't know Eons....whatever an Eon is....and I'm not going to speculate on the why's he did what he did but instead I will look at what I know...or I choose to believe...

A creature which took on and became literal Evil...the opposite of light...the direct opposite of Life...whose soul purpose would be to kill steal and destroy all things.

Take that creature...and a host that choose to follow him and put them in the mix with humans now....for thousands of years this creature has worked to destroy mankind and extinguish the "Light" but....he has'nt been able to...why?

Well I think you know my belief why...the path to heaven was re-opened by Jesus Christ and it is written what He openeth no man shutteth...yet it is also written that in the end times it will be like the days of Noah...men will be eating and drinking and giving in marriage and the Lord will come in an hour when you think Him not...here's the rub once the master has risen up and shut that door it is over.

A city divided against itself cannot stand and Satan knows this as well hence has been his plot since our beggining...a world ruled by him under one flag.He will have to achieve it by force and threat of death.The stage is set.You cannot see the air yet you know it is there.Thomas had the same hurdel to overcome as you unless it is seen with the eyes you will not believe but what you and others state day in and day out here is the same thing...."WHY? WHY? WHY?....why do these things happen....how could it happen....I know I feel in my bones something is wrong but I don't know what it is"....that is your soul begging to be re-born and saved by Jesus...that sound you hear is Jesus knocking at the door to your heart...the way back to grace has already been paid in full...get on your knees ask him in faith to forgive you your trespasses and invite Him into your heart to save you from this hell on Earth....he will come in and will never leave you Skybird...your eyes will open and you will see things in a new light...you will see the light....a midst all this evil an hopelessness there is still hope.

Matthew 11
[25] At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
[26] Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
[27] All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
[28] Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

You must enter in by the door Skybird.
Jesus is the door.

Careful there Iceman, you may receive a strongly worded post from Skybird with Nietzsche quotes interspersed in the text, or worse you may hijack the thread!!

Um I think it is relevant to the thread...a why why why did the girl do this? with the respective response of the government....just my take on why why why :)