They can if they don't follow the law. But whatever.

Right. Especially since patches and such tend to go to the games with the highest following. The ones that don't sell are neglected.

And yes, "if you don't like it, don't use it" is a poor "argument", for the reasons I specified.

I personally do not know why he's making it. "It's OK to release sloppy products, because it makes them more money and whatever makes you money is OK"?

That's like saying "Ice cream companies shouldn't use natural ingredients, 'cause they cost more and thus the producers break corporate law". In fact, come to think of it, by your reasoning there shouldn't be any freeware patches whatsoever, just more releases and expansion packs. Makes the publishers more money, you know.

Given the choice between many unfinished games (today's state) and fewer games, all of which were finished and didn't need patching (the old days), I know what I'd choose. Any time. I'd even be willing to pay more for them. Well, a bit more:p.

Well... you're right. Ubisoft had their hands tied on the swastika deal on countries like germany and a few others... but it certainly wasn't just because of legal reasons that they only allowed swastikas on the U.S. version... or... no, I don't think that the swastikas is banned in ALL of europe, is it?... nonetheless you are correct, there is no need to get confrontational.

In an effort to minimize missunderstandings, let me refrase my thoughts.

Programming is not an easy thing to do... I should know, I have a bachelor's degree in computer sciences. To make a project as big as SHIII takes a lot of work. As a matter of fact, a project like SHIII is so big and awesome, that it needs more than just mere programming to be completed. Just look at the credits for today's hottest games and you'll quickly realize that the programming team is but a small part of a very, very big effort.

I like SHIII, and I enjoy playing it very much. However, other games in the past have left me feelling like "Wow! That's incredible... I wonder how they managed to do that? :up: ". I specialy love games where I end up getting so much more than what I was expecting at the moment of purchase :yep:.

But then there are games like SHIII :roll: ... games that I love because I can recognize great potential in them, but that at the same time, irk me to no end because they're full of newbie mistakes. It makes me feel paranoid and I start to think that somebody on the developing team must have sabotaged the game on purpouse. Honestly, that's how I feel when I look at some of the impressive things that were acomplished on SHIII, and yet, they couldn't do other things that were fairly easy to do? Again, it makes me wonder if they aren't messing up on purpouse.

Here are some examples:
* Seeing a target through the periscope makes it impossible for your soundman to listen to it from the hydrophones, even if he had it "locked on" a moment before.
* Major enemy ports are modeled, but there's no use in trying to reach them... they're completely empty.
* A big part of navigating is being able to measure angles on a map, and SHIII does include a nifty nav map, but (as originaly released) you are given no way of measuring angles on it (the protractor originaly came out as a mod and was incorporated into a patch for the game).
* When asking the soundman to guess the range to target with the sonar, he'll ping the enemy (which would give him the exact range to target) but still only gives you a vage range guess that varies wildly.
* Your watch officer is incredibly good at giving you the range to the closest ship, but is completely unable to even guess at the range of the second or third closest ship (or any other ship for that matter).
* Your soundman can give you info on the closest target, or the closest warship, but is unable to give you info on any other ship (the second closest or the closest merchant ship, for example)
* Boat sections like the command room are completely modeled in 3D, and all of the important instruments work (or were supoused to) and are even clickable... yet, they do nothing but display their name when you click them.

Now, take notice that none of these "errors" are bugs per se. None of these result from a misterious error somewher deep inside the code. Lord knows I've had my share of those, and I know that they're hard to track.... but no, all of these are conscious decitions to implement features in a poor way. It is not because of a bug that the game comes with such a poor manual, it's a conscious decision. It's not because of a bug that they decided not to include wolfpacks: they just thought it was a non-essential feature that really wasn't worth the effort and could be left out of the game. etc. etc. etc.

Maybe I'm reading things wrong... I certainly don't know all of the story, since I'm not privy to Ubisoft's inner workings or confidential info (heck I didn't even know they existed before SHIII). But the fact that the game was able to deliver on some very exciting and dificult features, but completely fails to deliver on others that were considered standard even a decade ago just irritates me to no end.

It kinda makes me feel betrayed... like: You could do all those hard parts but no the easy stuff?!?!? come on !!!! :damn:

But yes, I will continue to play with it, for I am adicted to subsimming... I need my fix, but I'll still hate all the unfinished or poorly implemented features on it and wail about it so that maybe someone at Ubisoft takes notice and realizes that it is not acceptable for them to deliver a half finished product... and I hope that they mend their ways for SHIV.

If they get it right next time, I'll gladly pay 59.99 for SHIV (SHIII cost me 24.99) and would even recomend it to everyone. (I haven't recomended SHIII to anyone)

Well, After six posts in this thread alone spouting Watergate sized consipiracy theories of massive deceit and 'intentional' coding errors with the sole intent of strong arming $40 bucks of out your wallet, this is obvious...

Did you ever take time to consider, that maybe... just maybe... these people (and they are people you've been insulting with all these accusations, with jobs, and kids and lives, and maybe even pride in their work) really are trying to put out the best possible product they can given severe budget and time restraints. Put yourself in their place for once, you gotta wonder why they would even want to bother to continue trying to please someone who so far has given them very little credit for anything...

Anyway, I hope for your sake, they are reading this and make it their mission to deliver this game 100% error free (intentional or otherwise) so that you can get on with your life...

Lol ;)

errr... :-? .... no... I don't think I'm getting my point across at all...
You see my posts as an attack to the game... I see my posts as a statement of honest disatisfaction with some of the games features (that's why I even bother to point out specifics and not just speak vaguely). It is my hope that some of the guys at Ubisoft will take my posts and many many others like it and walk into the office of whatever bean counting pencil pusher responsible for some of the game's shortcomings and tell him to his face: "See! we told you that if you forced us to realease the game before it was completed that people would notice. We told you that if you forced us to cut corners on secondary things like a decent manual people would be upset about it... And we told you that not properly suporting a game with ongoing patches will hurt our sale potential in the future... So get off our backs and let us do a good job on SHIV!!!!"

But you're right in one thing: I've said enough already. This message won't grow any stronger by me repeating it. If other people are dissatisfied with certain parts of the game, they need to speak up for themselves also... I've already spent more than enough time on the soap box. :yep:

P.S.: If I didn't see any potential in this game, or thought that it was too dificult to fix it, I wouldn't bother posting about it. :up:

Manual for SHIV
 

I love virtuality and combat simulation of all kinds.

Apart from my love of SII and SHIII I have been playing Red Baron 3D online ever since it came out and belong to one of the oldest and best RB3D squadrons (The Royal Air Corps http://www.citigraph.com/rac/ ) I mention this because I have an original copy of the game which came with a fantastic, THICK, beautifully illustrated and printed, full-colour, wide-format manual. Those who developed that game (Sierra) long stopped supporting it and it has only survived through its user community. But that manual is a prized and precious collector's item now and Red Baron 3D remains to this day the best WW1 aeriel combat simulator ever. I think the attention to detail in the realism of its flight models and the manual reflect why, regardless of the fact that it's graphics have long been surpassed, it is a gaming classic and is still to this day played online, all be it by a relative handful of a few hundred loyal enthusiasts. It still remains the standard against which any contemporary attempt at a WW1 air combat simulator is judged by any virtual pilot who has ever flown it. Quality matters and LASTS.

I believe that the Silent Hunter series has become a classic game too and remains THE definitive standard for future submarine combat simulation. It doesn't just deserve an excellent, properly colour printed and comprehensive manual at least as good as Red Baron's, it DEMANDS it! Anything less will represent a complete failure on the part of the developers (Ubisoft?) to realise what they have in this family of simulators, in market terms.

Like Red Baron 3D, SHIII and SHIV are the kind of products that breed intense enthusiasm and loyalty amongst we gamers who become immersed in their realms. They will make MORE sales with an excellent manual, not less, even if they have to charge $5-$10 more for the option of a game version that has the full manual. Ubisoft, please listen to the GAMERS WHO BUY YOUR PRODUCTS and ignore the bean counters and finance executives who live by cynical predictions of 5 cent margin losses which are ALL based, after all, on pure negative speculation!

Give your buyers a STUNNINGLY WELL PRODUCED product with an excellent "collector's item" calibre manual and they will pay whatever it costs. Trust me, I am one of your buyers. Make it a "Special Edition" or a "DeLuxe Version" if you must and sell a PDF manual version for the folk who don't care. Just as MS did with Flight simulator FS9 2004 and just look at the price of THAT when it first came out? (£75!!!! but niether the delluxe nor the standard version had decent manuals even!) Make the SH series into THE all-time best simulator in its realm. After all, before MS took that gamble with the MS FS series there WAS NO flight simulator market. SH II and SHIII have already bred a huge range of MODs and add-ons, some of them payware. Look at the vast range of products and new markets (= "other ways of making money" for your bean counters) that the MS Flight Simulator series has generated?

Yesterday I was at the International Flight Simulation Convention at the NEC in Birmingham where I spoke with Oleg Maddox the boss and originator of the team (Maddox Games) that worked with Ubisoft to produce the amazingly successful WW2 air combat series of games that began with IL2 Sturmovik and continued with Forgotten Battles and it's many pay-ware expansions and add-ons since. (Pacific Fighters, Aces Expansion Pack, Battle for Europe, Operation Barbarossa etc). He is delaying the publication date of Battle of Briatin, the first of his new generation of WW2 combat sims called the "Storm of War " series by a YEAR to be sure that he gets it "right" and achieves all his objectives. Will his buyers wait that long and still buy it? YOU BET! Because we all understand that he is simply being a perfectionist and our experience of his former products means that we all KNOW that it will be well worth the wait in the end. Oleg knows that the gamers who buy his products are in the main extremely knowledgable enthusiasts who don't want to find themselves paying to be beta testers for an unfinished product. So we know BOB SOW will be incredibly high quality when it is finally published and that any remaining issues discovered by those who buy it will be rapidly fixed and adressed in free patch downloads. (However none of Oleg's SW has had proper large printed manuals so far, sadly. Their ONLY flaw.)

So make sure there is a version of SHIV that has a really excellent, big, illustrated, full-colour printed manual please Ubisoft! We all promise to buy it if you do!