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Let's skip the usual line by line and fastforward to the meet:

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Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

On the contrary. It's the hypocritical world, that gives the terrorists their ongoing support, money and motivation that keeps them going.

Had the world stood shoulder to shoulder decades ago and said we don't recognize the idea of a state run by people who blow up airplanes, buses, schools, houses and restaurants full of people, who slaughter unarmed Olympic participants, who blow up embassies, who continue to proclaim to this very day in all of their national charters that Israel must be destroyed - well, sir, you see, its thugs like you that support the beasts who are the most to blame. Shame on the likes of you.

Shame on the likes of me eh? Those two paragraphs go to the heart of yours, Sybirds, and other's historical relativism where you can pick and choose the "good parts" while ignoring the parts not so kind to you and yours; let us not forget that the world didn't begin when the state of Israel was proclaimed, nor can you beat the drums so righteously about the enemies methods when your own history includes the very same tactics going back long before the creation of the Israeli state. In fact while Canadians and the rest of the world were fighting Nazi Germany your "democratic" predecessors were routinely carrying out terrorist attacks against the British while they were fighting the Nazis (one such faction even going so far as to pledge alegience to Hitler as "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"). Then there is the fact that a wanted terrorist by the British went on to become your first PM. Nice history, and you have the gall to compare your Nazi like tactics against the Palestians as part of some global mythical struggle against "Islamofacism".

And while you were destroying Lebanon piece by piece and seeking UN support you still took time out to celebrate the anniversary of the bombing of the King David Hotel and comemorate it, and the hundreds of British nationals killed in it by Jewish radicals disguised as Muslims, with a nice little plague - how very civilized and noble of you.

And as to the Palestinian Parliment, would that be the one that your IDF routinely kidnaps and holds its representatives indefinitely in detention of? Yeah some parliment, some freedom you grant the Palestinians from under your boot.

You are really not so different from your enemy; you claim a right to a piece of land as sacred based purely upon religious doctrine, and which you have no other ties to yet will cling to it by any means available, no matter how brutal. If you go back a few decades before 1949 your numbers there were tiny, the sins your people having had suffered being caused by Europeans, not Muslims, and Israel was to be a refuge from the tyranny that Europeans, not Muslims, had for centuries exacted upon you. It wasn't until the locals realized that you'd come not to simply live among them, but to take the land from them, that the **** hit the fan.

Now Skybird and his ilk see Muslims emigrating to Europe, and Germany specifically, and his fears seem to amount to exactly that which your people had done in what was then Palestine... funny how this sort of projection works, and it would be funnier still if they in fact did have such designs and were ever successful, since then things would truly have gone full circle (seeing how the state of Israel was granted largely based upon Western guilt for the crimes we'd allowed Nazi Germany to inflict upon European Jews).

To me Israel is no victim, instead you are part of the root cause of the problem. Though as I said before, if you were ever to lose the annual welfare cheque you receive from the US and blanket UN veto then you might, just might, be forced to change your ways enough to get along with your neighbours - I know they're not the best bunch one could hope for, but you did pick them; and most sane people, upon moving to a bad neighbourhood, would either work to clean it up and make it better or simply pack up and move. Your country, however, is not sane, being founded and based solely upon irrational religious dogma, and chooses instead to build fences, blow things up, play the victim, and blame the rest of the world for either opposing you or appeasing the enemies that you yourself have made.

What do you know about operations Manta and Epervier and the attack of the airbase of Ouadi-Doum in february 86 by french airforce?
French troops fight against lybian troops on the ground and in the air since 1984 in Chad, a country who just interrest USA since vast oil filed were discovered in the past years.

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Originally Posted by MSgalileo

Good grief. Oil, oil, oil. Everything boils down oil for the uninformed.:damn: What does your autos run on, Wine?

It s just a fact, chad was a country USA ignore during many years, even when you were in troiuble with lybia (who invade north of chad to mine uranium) and the only country who stop them was france (did you know that the first Hind attack helicopter USA get in the 80' was given by the french after captring 3 of them in the northern of chad)
At the begining of the 2000, US oil company prospect in Chad and US troops (mainly SF) arrive in this country when the company discover oil fields.
I not talking about Darfour who get a strong interrest from your gvt actually (for humanitarian reason).

We use russian , norvegia, british, algerian, saoudian oil, France is the country with the most possible different source of oil in the world and one with the most pure air (just because 80% of the electricity production is nuclear).

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Originally Posted by MSgalileo

It s just a fact, chad was a country USA ignore during many years, even when you were in troiuble with lybia (who invade north of chad to mine uranium) and the only country who stop them was france

As it should have been. Chad was a French colony therefore a French caused problem. Listen to yourself chastise the US for it's foreign policies when your government has had many more fiascos than mine.

ok, ypour are the best in the world, you gvt never make mistake , you are the chamlpion of the liberty, defender of the poors and my country give WMD to Saddam, nuke to pakistan and korea, OBL live in an hotel in Paris where in conjunction with french he is preparing the next attack on our country.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSgalileo

We use russian , norvegia, british, algerian, saoudian oil, France is the country with the most possible different source of oil in the world...

Unless you come up with more countries that officially exports oil to France, your statement is wrong, between France and Italy, it is Italy that imports the most oil from different countries.

Libya being first exporter to Italy with over 25 million tons per year.

1- Libya
2- Saudi Arabia
3- Iran
4- Russia
5- Egypt
6- Algeria
7- Syria
8- Nigeria
9- Congo
10- United Arab Emirates
11- Norway
12- Cameroon
13- Tunisia
14- ... unofficially, even others.

That is 8 more countries than what you stated for la France, mon copain. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSgalileo

:huh: Please re-read my last post. I did and couldn't find anything refering to who's government is better.

Another day, another venom spew by Scandium, mimicking the best of Indymedia, Democratic Undergorund, Common Dreams, Rense, And World Socialists forum gossip, down to the same terminology and examples. Oh well.

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Originally Posted by scandium

Let's skip the usual line by line and fastforward to the meet:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Shame on the likes of me eh?

Yes.

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Those two paragraphs go to the heart of yours, Sybirds, and other's historical relativism where you can pick and choose the "good parts" while ignoring the parts not so kind to you and yours; let us not forget that the world didn't begin when the state of Israel was proclaimed,

Gosh darn! Really! And when did anyone say that? Oh but we didn't. But this is standard for the par................

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nor can you beat the drums so righteously about the enemies methods when your own history includes the very same tactics going back long before the creation of the Israeli state.

Really? Well, obviously you're referring to the Stern Gang and the Lehi. How many active members did they have? Did they represent the Jews? What did the rest of the population and the main Zionist parties at the time think of them and their tactics? Even they themselves, did they call for the annihilation of another country or people, as do Pal and Arab charters?

And finally, what caused the Lehi and Stern gangs to use the tactics that they used? Whom were they used against? What had the British been doing to the Jewish Palestinain population under their control for decades? We'll get to that.

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In fact while Canadians and the rest of the world were fighting Nazi Germany

You mean like these guys? So now you think you have a monopoly on WWII heroism, too? Phoney! Interesting how the name Neville Chamberlain pops up in that bit of history.

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your "democratic" predecessors were routinely carrying out terrorist attacks against the British while they were fighting the Nazis

Just as the reverse can be said: the British themselves and the Arabs in Palestine, with British approval, had been harrasing and murdering Palestinian Jews since the 20's at the time when Palestinian Jews were begging the British to allow them to join up with the British to fight the Nazis and 6 million Jews were being slaughtered in Europe, while the British refused entry to the few fleeing Jews that could make it as far as Palestine. Well, well, what do you know! Wonderful chaps, the British. I say, old chum!

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(one such faction even going so far as to pledge alegience to Hitler as "the enemy of my enemy is my friend").

Go ahead. Point out your source. But make sure you've checked very carefully that it isn't one of the unsubstantiated quotes that sites like StormFront love to hype and people like yourself get all excited being able to spread it around further.

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Then there is the fact that a wanted terrorist by the British went on to become your first PM.

A great man, the late Begin was. But where were we?

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Nice history, and you have the gall to compare your Nazi like tactics against the Palestians

Name them. Put your money where your fat mouth is.

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as part of some global mythical struggle against "Islamofacism".

No. That's what the Islamists are doing for a fact and they're never shy of saying so. Maybe your Canadian papers are a bit shy of printing such matter but you can google for days accumulating original quotes from Islamic sites and purely Islamic source that state that as a fact, much as you wish to deny it.

It is you that are the myth weaver here.

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And while you were destroying Lebanon piece by piece

Whatever it takes.

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and seeking UN support you still took time out to celebrate the anniversary of the bombing of the King David Hotel and comemorate it,

Really? Again name your crooked sources. I know that we had a plaque placed at the King David hotel earlier this year and the British protested its text. It was replaced. There were no crowd drawing ceremonies, it hardly got mentioned on TV or radio and worse we didn't get a day off as a national holiday. Once again, you're full of it. Or more accurately, you're a David Duke wannabee with such twistings of facts and events.

BTW, here's the Etzel's own page on the King David Hotel bombing.

Quote:

and the hundreds of British nationals killed in it by Jewish radicals disguised as Muslims, with a nice little plague - how very civilized and noble of you.

Indeed so. Here's the full text of the original plaque, unlike the editied version passed from hatesite to hatesite (you must love them, since you always are quoting them) across the Internet:

"The hotel housed the Mandate Secretariat as well as the Army Headquarters. On July 1946 Irgun fighters, at the orders of the Hebrew Resistance Movement, planted explosives in the basement. Warning phone calls had been made urging the hotel's occupants to leave immediately. For reasons known only to the British, the hotel was not evacuated, and after 25 minutes, the bombs exploded, and to the Irgun's regret and dismay, 91 persons were killed."

Does "Irgun's regret and dismay" sound like words of celebration to you? Are these uncivilized words to you? Do they completely lack in nobility?

And what's worse is what the plaque says is simply the truth but obviously, Scandy, the truth isn't your cup of tea. Perfect time to paraphrase the British.

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And as to the Palestinian Parliment, would that be the one that your IDF routinely kidnaps and holds its representatives indefinitely in detention of?

Terrorists in suits and ties obviously impress you. Who cares!

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Yeah some parliment, some freedom you grant the Palestinians from under your boot.

Ah! The boot! Another classic Nazi-associated term to pin on the Jews. But I'll reply semantically in kind: if the shoe fits.

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You are really not so different from your enemy;

Actually, it is you who are not so different from my enemy. Think about that.

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you claim a right to a piece of land as sacred based purely upon religious doctrine,

Yes but actually most Zionist pioneers were secular in nature but again, who cares about facts!

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and which you have no other ties to yet will cling to it by any means available, no matter how brutal.

Ah! Our brutality wouldn't by chance have something to do with a neverending dream of the Arabs to "Itbach al Yahud" - "slaughter the Jews", now would it?

Classic line: If the Arabs would drop their weapons, there would be no more war. If the Israelis would drop theirs, there would be no more Israel.

That sums up the situation here in a nutshell. Climb on in!

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If you go back a few decades before 1949 your numbers there were tiny, the sins your people having had suffered being caused by Europeans, not Muslims, and Israel was to be a refuge from the tyranny that Europeans, not Muslims, had for centuries exacted upon you.

It wasn't until the locals realized that you'd come not to simply live among them, but to take the land from them, that the **** hit the fan.

Would you like to start a historic discussion of land-grabbing? It didn't exist. Jews paid through their teeth for the worst possible land, unused by the Arabs. But I don't have time for more of your shenanigans today.

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Now Skybird and his ilk see Muslims emigrating to Europe, and Germany specifically, and his fears seem to amount to exactly that which your people had done in what was then Palestine...

Threaten journalists, kill them, blow up their trains and planes. Yep, the Arabs learned that from the Jews, didn't they.

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funny how this sort of projection works, and it would be funnier still if they in fact did have such designs and were ever successful, since then things would truly have gone full circle (seeing how the state of Israel was granted largely based upon Western guilt for the crimes we'd allowed Nazi Germany to inflict upon European Jews).

The Balfour declaration goes back to 1917, not 1947.

I've had enough of your hash and trash. I will some it up nicely with a letter composed by the late Rabbi Meir Kahane. Yes, that one. Until recently, we have never had anything to do with him. But the more writings of his I read, the more I see he was on to something and spot on at that. It turns out Kahane was right, after all.

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Dear World,

It Appears That You Are Hard To Please.

I understand that you are upset over us, here in Israel. Indeed, it appears that you are quite upset, even angry and outraged? Indeed, every few years you seem to become upset over us. Today, it is the brutal repression of the Palestinians; yesterday, it was Lebanon; before that it was the bombing of the nuclear reactor in Baghdad and the Yom Kippur War campaign. It appears that Jews who triumph and who, therefore, live, upset you most extraordinarily. Of course, dear world, long before there was an Israel, we, the Jewish people - upset you. We upset a German people who elected a Hitler and we upset an Austrian people who cheered his entry into Vienna and we upset a whole slew of Slavic nations - Poles, Slovaks, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Russians, Hungarians, Romanians. And we go back a long, long way in the history of world upset. We upset the Cossacks of Chmielnicki who massacred tens of thousands of us in 1648-49; we upset the Crusaders who, on their way to liberate the Holy Land, were so upset at Jews that they slaughtered untold numbers of us. We upset, for centuries, a Roman Catholic Church that did its best to define our relationship through Inquisitions. And we upset the arch-enemy of the Church, Martin Luther, who, in his call to burn the synagogues and the Jews within them, showed an admirable Christian ecumenical spirit.

It is because we became so upset over upsetting you, dear world, that we decided to leave you - in a manner of speaking - and establish a Jewish State.

The reasoning was that living in close contact with you, as resident-strangers in the various countries that comprise you, we upset you, irritate you, disturb you. What better notion, then, than to leave you and thus love you - and have you love us? And so we decided to come home - to the same homeland from which we were driven out 1,900 years earlier by a Roman world that, apparently, we also upset. Alas, dear world, it appears that you are hard to please. Having left you and your Pogroms and Inquisitions and Crusades and Holocausts, having taken our leave of the general world to live alone in our own little state - we continue to upset you.

You are upset that we repress the poor Palestinians. You are deeply angered over the fact that we do not give up the lands of 1967, which are clearly the obstacle to peace in the Middle East. Moscow is upset and Washington is upset.

The Arabs are upset and the gentle Egyptian moderates are upset. Well, dear world, consider the reaction of a normal Jew from Israel. In 1920, 1921 and 1929, there were no territories of 1967 to impede peace between Jews and Arabs. Indeed, there was no Jewish State to upset anybody. Nevertheless, the same oppressed and repressed Palestinians slaughtered hundreds of Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa, Safed and Hebron. Indeed, 67 Jews were slaughtered one day in Hebron - in 1929. Dear world, why did the Arabs - the Palestinians - massacre 67 Jews in one day in 1929? Could it have been their anger over Israeli aggression in 1967?

And why were 510 Jewish men, women and children slaughtered in Arab riots in 1936-39? Was it because of Arab upset over 1967? And when you, World, proposed a U.N. Partition Plan in 1947 that would have created a Palestinian State alongside a tiny Israel and the Arabs cried and went to war and killed 6,000 Jews - was that upset stomach caused by the aggression of 1967? And, by the way, dear world, why did we not hear your cry of upset, then?

The poor Palestinians who today kill Jews with explosives and firebombs and stones are part of the same people who - when they had all the territories they now demand be given them for their state - attempted to drive the Jewish State into the sea. The same twisted faces, the same hate, the same cry of "idbah-al-yahud" - "Slaughter the Jews!" that we hear and see today, were seen and heard then. The same people, the same dream - destroy Israel. What they failed to do yesterday, they dream of today - but we should not "repress" them..............

Dear world, you stood by the Holocaust and you stood by in 1948 as seven states launched a war that the Arab League proudly compared to the Mongol massacres. You stood by in 1967 as Nasser, wildly cheered by wild mobs in every Arab capital in the world, vowed to drive the Jews into the sea. And you would stand by tomorrow if Israel were facing extinction. And since we know that the Arabs-Palestinians daily dream of that extinction, we will do everything possible to remain alive in our own land. If that bothers you, dear world, well - think of how many times in the past you bothered us. In any event, dear world, if you are bothered by us, here is one Jew in Israel who could not care less.

One last appropriate article, touching on the King David Hotel incident.

Scandium, blood brother of Solana:

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Solana and the sign
By SARAH HONIG

What connects European Union foreign policy chief Javier Solana to a Jerusalem landmark inscription? Hypocrisy. Obfuscation of truth. Tampering with history, be it more distant or very recent.

Far from the sound and fury of unabated fighting on Israel's South and North, both Solana and the sign set new standards for insincerity, duplicity and pretence. Both travesties - equally stomach-churning, mind-boggling and plainly exasperating - came to light on the same day last week.

The marker was put up to commemorate the 60th anniversary of the King David Hotel blast in which the IZL (in the framework of an ad-hoc partnership with the other undergrounds - the actual operative order having come from Hagana commander Moshe Sneh) blew up the edifice that served as the British Mandate's nerve center. The IZL phoned warnings to the French Consulate, The Palestine Post (this newspaper's forerunner) and the hotel switchboard, requesting that the building be vacated forthwith to avoid casualties. The Brits haughtily pooh-poohed all three advance notices.

This is the marker's original text:

"The hotel housed the Mandate Secretariat as well as the Army Headquarters. On July 1946 Irgun fighters, at the orders of the Hebrew Resistance Movement, planted explosives in the basement. Warning phone calls had been made urging the hotel's occupants to leave immediately. For reasons known only to the British, the hotel was not evacuated, and after 25 minutes, the bombs exploded, and to the Irgun's regret and dismay, 91 persons were killed."

IT'S ALL incontrovertibly true, but truth isn't everyone's cup of tea. And so Her Majesty's embassy demanded the sign be revised. To curry favor and avoid discord, Jerusalem's municipality dutifully promised to remove offensive references to the British refusal to clear the premises.
It may seem paltry considering current bloody events, but it's symptomatic. We're always so eager to please and so hungry for foreigners' approval - even at the expense of the justice of our cause.

The King David bombing is still cited today by Israel's maligners as an example of "Jewish terrorism," exploited particularly in order to set up synthetic moral equivalency between Arab suicide bombers who deliberately target civilians and the Jewish underground, which went out of its way to avoid casualties, civilian and otherwise.

The King David lie remains too useful to too many. They can't let it be dented, not even via a forgettable memorial plaque. And in our alacrity to accommodate ourselves and bask in the warm glow of enlightened post-modernist bon ton, we all too often willingly sacrifice the ethical core of our case, that which sets us apart from those who would annihilate us.

We even omit to stress the existential nature of Israel's struggle: how it was savagely attacked on the day of its birth by seven armies (some trained, equipped and led by the very same Brits who denied entry into this country to Jewish refugees from Hitler's hell, and later to hell's emaciated survivors). We compliantly submit to our characterization as somewhat unsavory.

SOLANA, HABITUALLY disseminating these de-rigueur characterizations, showed up here on "a fact-finding mission" on behalf of the EU, which presumably couldn't figure out what triggered the latest regional fuss and didn't apparently realize that fanatic Islamo-fascists - in possession of territories unilaterally ceded to them by Israel - had violated Israeli sovereignty, killed Israeli soldiers, abducted others and shelled noncombatants deep inside the country.

Both Hamas and Hizbullah owe allegiance to masters and manipulators in Damascus and Teheran, hardly the darlings of the world's progressive, liberal and tolerant democracies. Some of these democracies nevertheless dispatched Solana to discover what the uproar from troublesome Israel's vicinity was all about.

While here, Solana saw fit to uphold the EU's refusal to classify Hizbullah as a terrorist organization, asserting that the EU "does not possess sufficient data to determine" whether Nasrallah's nasties belong on its baddie list. He insisted on this not being a moral lapse on Europe's part, but strictly "a legal issue."

Solana's humbug isn't paint on metal. But it is, in essence, indistinguishable from the King David plaque modification. In both instances manifestly evident facts are denied and disingenuously covered up to serve vested interests and facilitate double standards.

If the specter of Jewish terrorism can be artificially conjured and magnified, it may not-so-subtly excuse horrific unrelenting terrorism against Jews.

Conversely, if that monstrously barbaric terror unleashed against the Jews can be diminished and deceptively passed off as something else, then Jewish self-defense is cast in a villainous light and tarnished with malicious tendentiousness as "disproportionate" and, indeed, inherently terrorist itself.

BY PRETENDING that Hizbullah may possibly be on the up-and-up, Solana knowingly propagates falsehoods. He isn't a misguided visitor to Beirut - like the three young women whose tearful departure from that city was so heartrendingly documented by the BBC. Probably never lovers of Zion to begin with, they were allowed to ramble on - without interruption or critical interrogation - about how Israelis "torture" the undeserving Lebanese. Solana surely knows better.
His realpolitik sanctimony notwithstanding, he knows that had Hamas and Hizbullah stayed inside their side of the demarcation line and not terrorized Israelis, no violence whatever would have broken out. No "humanitarian disaster" would be looming over either Gaza or Beirut.

But worse yet - in his heart of hearts - Solana knows that had Israelis not resisted the aggression of the Hamas and Hizbullah objects of his compassion, had Israelis not taken up arms in their self-defense, they'd face another Holocaust, as Hamas's and Hizbullah's Iranian sponsor has already explicitly threatened, mincing no words.

Unlike the British Mandatory high command, Israel cannot afford to superciliously dismiss serious forewarnings.

Ignorant Gringos :nope:

What the french have, and a lot of american rednecks could use (this thread is just another display), is culture, education, imagination, intelligence.

I am not pro / anti / american / french - I treat people like individuals and show interest and respect to every nation as I think every one deserves it. That includes the US and the French but also Palestinians, Afghans, Cubans, Mexicans and Venezuelans, to name just a few.

Certainly my country, Germany, owes America a lot - but mostly to the liberal, positive half of it that is on the defense right now.

In 1945, America was giving us food instead of bullets, and instead of hatrid they gave us respect, which was probably the one thing germans are craving for most. That way we have become one of the most Americanized countries in the world, and one of the most peaceful.

My message to the many great Americans I know - I cannot say often enough that you must be aware of the dangerous developments in your country. Many people who used to be very pro American are slowly beginning to dislike your country - in Europe and elsewhere - US is becoming the bad boy in the world, the chauvinistic supressor of small nations, desecrating the institutions and standards it created istself, guilty and ignorant of the destruction of our planet, and becoming hollow and rotten inside, economically as well as morally.

I certainly wouldnt want to live there on this day.

What page did you have to down to to fish this thing out?

It was linked from this thread:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=101574

Sorry I didnt look at the date - but there are still many french bashing / terrorism threads and I dont like the other side to get away with it too easily.

Talk about digging up an old thread......:o

Never the less, his thoughts are real. :hmm: