SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - Is war between cops and citizens brewing?

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Betonov (Post 2417621)

That one is legit.
Helps prevent retaliation from other members of the organised crime group or terror cell.

But when they testify in court, their identities would be known.

I hope no one is advocating that the police be allowed to testify anonymously.

I dont think SWAT (etc.) units' people should be identified.

It just makes them and their families a good target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus (Post 2417638)

But when they testify in court, their identities would be known.

I hope no one is advocating that the police be allowed to testify anonymously.

If the judge has a private interwiew with the officer in question with a (rough layman term) council that would prove to the court of his legitimacy but not the public of his identitiy.
That would be null if the officer in question would be the one standing trial of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus (Post 2417616)

This is a legitimate question and it deserves a serious answer. Here are my ideas for helping solve this problem. Some of my ideas are all related to the demilitarization the police force. The police are not like the military. They have different missions. The military kills people and destroys things. That's primarily what we do. The police should be enforcing the laws and protecting citizens.

1. Police should not wear military or military like uniforms. There are many reasons why the military wears uniforms. One of those reasons is that a uniform help provide a psychological distance between "us" and "them". Good for the military when we are trying to kill "them" bad for the police who are supposed to protect us.

2. Police should not have military type ranks. I cringe when I see a chief of police sporting four stars like he was some sort of a general. You are not a general, you are a manager of a law enforcement unit. Police officers should have police type ranks -- Officer (with classes), Detectives, Supervisors, etc. As the military relies on, ranks effect how people think and act.

3. Police should not have military weapons. I am absolutely against the policy of transferring old military equipment to the police. Police need to have the tools necessary to do their job, but they need to be civilian police tools.

4. Police should not obscure their identity. We have all seen photographs of police special response forces with their faces concealed. This has a tremendous emotional impact on who they are dealing with. It also has an effect on the officer wearing the mask.. It helps further psychologically distance the officer from what they are doing.

5. Accountability. The police is the government entity with the most opportunity to infringe on our civil rights. Most of my civil rights can, under the appropriate circumstance, be legally infringed by the police, at least on a temporary basis. This means that the police also have the opportunity to illegally infringe on my civil rights. This places a tremendous responsibility on the police. The police need extensive training on responsibility. Because they have the opportunity and the means to infringe on citizen's civil rights, the police must be held to a higher standard. This requires the police to be given clear guidance on what is and is not authorized. For every hour they spend on the firing range, the police need to spend 10 hours learning about civil rights. When an officer violates policy, they need to be held personally accountable.

I fear that to some police, the use of lethal force is not the last resort, but the first. That has to change.

6. Investigation. The police can not be allowed to investigate themselves. That's as dumb as allowing congress to make the rules for congress and investigate itself. And what country would be dumb enough for that. Why put officers in the position of having to investigate people who they may have to depend on to save their life next week? That's called conflict of interest.

If a local officer needs to be investigated, the investigation should be conducted at the county/state level. If a state police officer needs to be investigated the investigation should be conducted by another state or federal government.

Lastly, as a citizen, I would gladly pay additional taxes in order to fund non-lethal weapons for the police. The police need to be able to neutralize a threat. One way to neutralize a threat is to propel a few hundred grains of metal in to the person's body killing them.... but is that the only way?

This is the 21st century. We have smart people who can develop technology. What is that technology? I dunno. Clearly the TASER was a good start but hardly the ultimate tool.

A live suspect is always better than a dead one. Some in law enforcement may not agree with this as dead suspects can't testify.

We hear of cases of "suicide by cop". Often someone who wants this feels that they need to first kill someone else so the cop can finish the suicide. If the police had non-lethal weapons that can neutralize a threat, the option of suicide by cop, loses its attractiveness.

In any case, in the 21st century, there has to be another way to neutralize a threat other than punching a .40" hole in someone. Non-lethal also means that when mistakes are made, the person can recover.

A person who is killed by the police remains dead despite of any apologies or admissions of mistakes. Life is not a video game, there are no saves to reload.

So those are my ideas. Will these ideas make the police's job harder. Yes.

Civil rights always interfere with law enforcement. Look at the discussions about Miranda rights. Freedom always makes the government's job harder.

Law enforcement and government control can be a lot easier and more efficient if we just suppress civil rights and freedom. But that's not the America I want to live in.

But mostly, I just want the police to be held accountable for their actions. I don't think that is too much for a citizen to expect.

Excellent list of ideas. :up:

Probably too much good sense there for our brand of public officials to absorb. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torplexed (Post 2417523)

Yeah, it's a shame that this shooter decided on the Dallas Police Department to wreak his revenge. The DPD has a reputation as a model police force. They're transparent, active in the community, and excessive force complaints are rare. They're a police department that actually bothered to absorb the lessons from what transpired two years ago in Ferguson, Missouri.

But, I suppose if you anoint yourself as a crusader at war with the police, then in your deranged state there cease to be "innocent police" anymore than there are "innocent soldiers" in wartime.

That's what makes this week such a calamity. Doubling down on the tragedy just breeds more tragedy.

A local CBS network affiliate here ran a piece about an African-American photographer who was at the center of the shooting scene. As he was taking photos of the demonstration, the shots rang out; a bullet whizzed past his head. A Dallas PD officer ran up to him and pushed him out of the way to cover. The photographer looked back to where he had been standing only to see another officer standing on the spot. Another shot hit that officer, killing him. The photographer said if it had not been for the first officer shoving him, he might have been dead. He said he would like to find and meet the officer to thank him...

<O>

More and more i think it's not a gun problem with your coppers over there, it's a "who is becoming a cop" problem.

Cop heroically arrests school girl:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnjeKiDvN0M

Cop Puts Man In Hospital For Talking Loudly On His Cell Phone:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stnoucybXkI

Special needs 6 year old shot five times:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjJpu8ZnoqM

Assault and battery:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXwb5MeP6Wo

Punching handcuffed pregnant woman:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXyqlQl_vHs

State’s Attorney Had Video Evidence In Lynwood Police Brutality Investigation :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP6_UYUUqXM

Sergio Alvarez, EX-Cop from West Scramento gets 205 to life for rape and sexual assualt.
http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/cri...e41086659.html

Another one sentenced to 260 years for rape and battery:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...er-guilty-rape

And another one:
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/02/17/us/la-police-officers-sexual-assault-charges/

And while the AP's review is the most comprehensive available, the finding that about 1,000 officers in six years lost their badges over sexual misconduct is a certain undercount:
https://www.rt.com/usa/320437-police...al-misconduct/

Well:
http://gawker.com/oakland-police-chi...-al-1781818742

And another pillar of the community:
http://photographyisnotacrime.com/20...ictims-rights/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kongo Otto (Post 2417648)

More and more i think it's not a gun problem with your coppers over there, it's a "who is becoming a cop" problem.

There it is in a hand basket!

And then you have to ask a simple question.
Why the heck are they allowed to empty a full magazine into their targets?
A double tap should be enuff. If not? Double tap again.
It's call gun control. If Cops can't do it they should have no Guns.

I work in a national auto parts store located in a predominatly black neighborhood. no racisists, no black panthers, no white privilege, no tension, just business as usual.

But you look at the news and one would think race wars begin tomorrow.

People have posted excellent ideas with regards to what the issues are but none better than torplexed and Platapus. This is a comprehensive list as good as it gets. Your ideas were concisely laid out with common sense that would be near impossible to argue. Torplexed had said this Dallas police force was active in their respective community's which makes their loss that much worse and hard to absorb.

Torplexed had also pointed out that with various forces nationwide, law enforcement can vary from one community to another. I will assume for the moment that is because of their respective infrastructure and needs.
That being said, it may also be helpful if a nationwide standard were implemented to insure law enforcement is applied in a uniform and consistent manner. Severe Penalties should also be used to punish " selective enforcement " of law against people they are there to protect.

The use of video camera's has in some cases exposed police officers committing crimes that are worse than what they allegedly stopped a citizen for doing. They have also been credited for curtailing various abuses.

It may be helpful if these various police forces were no longer armed with military grade hardware. If the need arises, SWAT units can take the appropriate remedial action if higher power is needed. The various police forces should cease being paramilitary forces and go back to community based units tasked with protection of it's citizens. That being said, I think we can agree most uniformed officers are doing the best they can and conduct themselves honorably. If we can assume most people are good people, then that same standard should also be applied to law enforcement.

Lastly, law enforcement personnel who engage in criminal activities should not under any circumstances be given favorable treatments in the courts but be held accountable. This includes being put in the general population in prison. I think this would be a powerful deterent.

For these initiatives to work, they would have to be implemented on a national level with a corresponding national standard.

On the other side of the coin, the time may have come where the proliferation of military grade weapons among the general public is addressed on a bi partisan national level. I am all for the 2nd amendment and agree people should have the right to employ force to protect themselves and their families. I think that can be done without the use of the assault rifles that are sold to the general public. Most people who employ weapons as part of a home defense strategy have carefully thought out exit and primary and secondary gathering points for family members . Weapons will never be a substitute for the greatest weapon people have-their brains. This would go a long way toward helping law enforcement officers remain safe even though the vast majority of people with assault style weapons are law abiding citizens and probably pillars of their communities. I think we can all agree it's a small minority on both sides that are the problem. The problem is both sides are being painted with the same brush.

I also think torplexed and Platapus should run for office . :up:

Some cops - the force of the legal crimminals ruling the nation - act selfish, racist and inhumane.
The potential victims solidarize and protest against the privileged force - the puffer between the rulers and the ruled.
They carry their protest on the streets.

More cops act badly, but the majority of them is protected by the rulers, by their laws and their privileged interpreters of these laws.
The cops shall be cared for, as the force to protect the privatized possessions of the rulers. Generous pardon for misbehaviour is granted.
The potential victims get more upset. Additionally they get support of sympathizers, a growing part of the society.

Attemps to desolidarize the society increase, but the controlled media has lost much of its former power, while the new media is controlled by a small group of individuals running extremely successful corporations.
They are on their way to capitalist monopole over perception, reality and motivation. The old system has to vanish, the old actors have to resign. A global media shall be established, globally interconnected, globally controlled.

The actual establishment has to fight back, find a solution to get the people off the streets. They solidarize, they work together, they want a change.
A little spark could ingite an explosion and the well established sytem of the rulers might be crushed.

Solution?
Make the potential victims part of some true culprit and get their totally justified indignation under control.
One of their kin has killed several cops now. Good cops! Really good cops, trying to ease the causative tensions by engaging in better behaviour, by trying to institutialze better cop behaviour.

And the sympathy for any support, any change is minimized immediately.

Make sure (as usual) the bad guy can't tell facts anymore and feel free to control the perception of the people again, contolling their behaviour and motivation.

“There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.” (Warren Buffett)

The cops are Warren's military - and they suffered some casualties - by serving as pawn sacrifice.

The Bahamas issues travel advisory regarding the US:
http://uk.businessinsider.com/the-ba...16-7?r=US&IR=T

2nd day since Dallas working in a predominately black neighborhood. Personal observations and experience. Still no racism, tension, division, hatred, black panthers or gunfire. Just business as usual and in fact a quite friendly atmosphere. Nice black lady was telling jokes, and I met a black fellow vet who thanked me for giving him a discount and said 'us vets need to stick together'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockstar (Post 2417945)

2nd day since Dallas working in a predominately black neighborhood. Still no racism, tension, division, hatred, black panthers or gunfire. Just business as usual and in fact a quite friendly atmosphere.

Have you checked down the back of the couch? :hmmm:

came home, checked behind couch and found a ton of dog fur.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockstar (Post 2417947)

came home, checked behind couch and found a ton of dog fur.

Any quarters?