SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - Taxes done right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betonov (Post 2199550)

I was refering to income tax.

Medical insurances and social insurance are payed by my employer. Probably my wage wouldn't be higher without them, only his takings so I don't care about that.

VAT and road tax and the rest of them, those are voluntary. Don't want to pay a road tax, don't own a car, don't want to pay VAT, don' buy things.

I don't mind paying taxes. The new road and fibreoptic line on my street was payed by taxes. My successful asthma treatment was payed by insurance and taxes, the paramedics that helped my mother were payed by taxes and the ambulance was payed by taxes.
Only the taxes being used for the upkeep of the retard-fest called the government are the ones that I have a problem with

Why have you not done private insurance deals for your asthma and hospital costs? You want faster internet - why must all others pay for it, why not just yourself and those wanting it? The paramedics helped your family out - what is so immoral in expecting you to come up for the costs, why must all others budget you?

And in your country you people really can step to the cashdesk and decide all by yourself whether you want to pay VAT this day, or not? I don'T believe that.

Solidarity that is enforced, is no solidarity, but force, because solidarity necessarily has voluntariness as a precondition. And those who always speak of this social solidarity, in the end mean just this: all others pay for me.

I refuse to be solidary, refusing that has become a moral imperative and a demand of reason in these crazy times of ours. People can ask me whether I help them out or not, or whether I contribute to somethign they want to see getting done, or not. But the choice must be mine. Where I am forced to comply with some stranger's demands and must pay for him whether I want it or not, I turn hostile nowadays.

And for myself, I also do not want free rides, btw. The costs of my educaiton have been payed for - by the taxes of my father over that time. I do not buy into this criminal "Umlagesystem" (no English translation found, I mean)that was implemented after WWII, it always remains to be a crime against the following generation, always. It is like a chain mail system. My insurance sees me paying more into it, then I have taken in returns. One occasion where I needed an ambulance after I was stabbed down some years ago, saw me making a voluntary donation to the Maltheser organisation of 300 Euros. Back then I still had not dived that deep into libertarian politics and economics like I have in the past 2 years or so, but already back then I hated to have debts with somebody.

A recent study by the OECD confirmed Germany being at the global top of tax liabilities for citizens in the various countries, over 49% of wages get stolen by the state for income tax and social taxes. Add to this consumer taxes and VAT , and you easily end up far beyond the 60% mark. Even Sweden has learned after the partial collapse of its socialist utopia of the 80s' dreams that such taxation levels are poison, and had them cut back . In Germany, our people are mentally so damaged that they even demand to get taxed more! People want it! It is here where I realise that the situation is really hopeless. Its a typical German deformation, Germans are not any less missionary than Americans are, we only are like that in a very different manner. But both expect that sooner or later all the world would follow their wonderful example they have set.

Even when haying payed for that ambulance, voluntarily, taxes I must accept to get betrayed over nevertheless. I would prefer to have all thta money given by me used for purposes that I decide on, in my region and place of living, over issues I am in any way linked to, are affected by. I do not carer for maintaining an Autobahn in Bavaria. I care for maintaining an Autobahn here in the Münsterland, and want the Bavarians not caring for ours, but theirs. I do not see why the money for that must be given to bureaucrats in berlin and Brussels knowing nothign about that, and distributing nation-wide money pools via so many instances in the middle to their final purposes that the deciding polticians are totally disconnected from. We people in the Münsterland could very well decide and organise autobahn maintenance all by ourselves, or let it be done by those wanting to use that part of the autobahn - and then have them the costs added to the prices of consumer goods (instead of VAT) and road toll systems. Those using the autobahn, pay via street toll when driving on that autobahn. Those not using the autobahn, but profiteering from havign their consumer goods being transported via the autobahn, pay via the price for consumer goods that has the costs for the autobahn calculated into it, like now the VAT is included in it. - Just a principle example. Most things could be organsied like this, regionally, locally, via private contracts - no need for politicians overwatching it: education, healthcare, police, fire brigades, cultural life... People pay for what they use, they do not pay for what they do not use. If a business or service stops to exist because not sufficient people were willing to pay for it, then this simply means the demand was too low for that service. Just make sure there is competition between companies offering such services, and no monopoles and cartels being formed up. If people want a cultural life ion their town, they will pay for it. If they do not want to pay for it, then obviously it is not worth it to them. The few wanting it nevertheless have no right to force the majority to nevertheless subsidize it. If they see their future threatened by to low educaiton and cultural life standards, they will pay for increasing them. If they will not do that, they will have to live with the consequences. But it is THEIR decision. Not yours, not mine, not thta of some feudal sun king in a distant capital telling them "You MUST!" and "You SHALL NOT!"

Politicians are a disturbance variable only. And they live parasitically by people accepting their useless existence. They bribe people into handing over their freedom and self-responsibility to them, and in return get material 24/7 nursing and in the end total dependence form the state. Great things will come from such a dozing, lazy, incompetent, cowardly population that even expects getting its baby ar$e$ wiped by the government!

Pay for what you take, do noit take what is not yours, make your bills and debts straight, do not spend more and demand more than you can afford, if you have ambitions: prepare the basic groundwork first enabling you to realise them - do not dare for even one minute to assume that the others owe it to you. They don't owe you anything more than just the fulfillment of their part of any deal you negotiated with them.

Where the heck are politicians and governments needed in all this?

And what shall it be now - do we formally guarantee the freedom to own private property - or do we not, instead allowing the majority to decide over partial expropriation, and legalizing theft and looting? When two wolves and a lamb have a vote on what shall be up for dinner, how will it end?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betonov (Post 2199597)

Then drag yourself into a little hole and be alone and angry there.

Enforced solidarity helped me, my family and most of the people I know so I really don't care about if it's voluntary or not. No one got killed paying those taxes.
But you know when people would die ?? When un-enforced solidarity would be in place. Especially in a nation as cold-hearted and egotistical as Slovenia. You think people would line the tax office with money to ''donate'' to the healthcare system. They wouldn't give a cent and people would die because of it. And in the end they themselves would die because they wouldn't be able to afford it.

So what if my insurance was used to pay for someone's heart operation 100km away from me. So what if my taxes were used to build a road to a place with only one house. A nation where an ambulance can't be at any house within minutes is not modern and not civilized. Enforced solidarity ensures that.

I'm a one response away from having to apologise to Jim and Steve in the evening about the infractions that I'll get from being honest about you.
So I'll just ignore.

There is a logical fallacy. There is no such thing like "enforced solidarity".

Regartding yourself, you can asdk other peopel for help. Your friends, family, for example, that would come to mind first. Before we had this modern madness (that ahs beocme totally unmaintaianble now, and creates costs we cannot afford and raises our debts!!!), people used to take more care for each other. You also can found fincing on dionations, olike they use to do it in the Us ver ymuch. In many cultures and societies, voluntary donation is seen as morally desirable, is even favoured by religions. But the state doie snto want that to be in pirvate intiiave, but wants to enforce it mandatorily - via the state. Becasue else the state would noit be needed, and all those bureaucrats workjing in stat5e service would not be payed anymore.

A simple math excercise for you.

In Germany, state spending on social issues has increased by a factor of 19 in the 4 decades from 1960 to 2000. At the end of that time era, over one third of the state budget was spend for the "social sector". Who benefited from that? In 2000, at best one in twenty persons was really depending and was really poor in Germany, needing to get support from state-driven social programs, around 4 million people. One third of the state budget translates into over 1.2 trillion bucks. That would have meant that each of the depending social net receivers would have been paid 300,000 thousands bucks per year! Obviously that has not happened! NMo social wellfare receiver ever gets 300,000 per year. He may get let'S say 15,000 per year. Makes a difference of 285,000. and here is the question for you:

Where has that money gone?

You should know that estimations are that in 2000, for every socially depending person there may have been 10-15 persons in adminstration who spoend their working timwe with amdinstrating and channeling the 15000 bucks to the net receiver. These people all wanted to get payed for their organsdartion service. The offices need to be payed for, the maintenance costs need to be made straight. Ministries have more staff working over these issues, they ll want their privileges and limousines, careers in politics base on having a function in the social field.

In other words, of the 300,000 bucks for single receiver, 285 thousand get sucked up by the system, and 15,000 ends up to actually getting spend on the individual in question.

Any company or insurance doing business like this, would be mauled at the end of the first quarter already, and would be trialed. The state does not get trialed, because he has a monopolised status that he has claimed for himself and secured by making legislation and laws supporting his monopolised status.

the same service on social issues could be had much cheaper. Estimations are that when you donate money to an organisation busy in charity or protection of nature, good management could reduce administrative costs to around 10% of the money they collect, that means of one dollar you donate, 10 cents get spend for the internal buraucracy, and 90 cents end up ina tually being used for social aid or environment protection measurements. Obviously the state cannot compete here, of one dollar you give him, he spends 95 cents on internal bureaucracy, and jst 5 cents on the issue the money was collected for.

Why is the state still in business then? Because he is a monopolist. He does the worst quality in service, and charges many many times more in fees for providing that service. Competent management means one tenth of the funds get consumed for administration. State management means 95% opf funds get spend for administration.

Grewat show! And people are asking why states de facto are bancrupt and only carry on by criminal cheats and tricks that are nothing else than punishable-by law delaying of filling of insolvency...?

What people have forgotten is that you cannot spend more than you can afford, and when you spend more than you have, sooner or later you get a problem and end up crashing with your head against a wall that is harder than your skull. That crash is not too far away anymore. Until it makes Wham!, the paraitical prfiteers of the system will do all they can to suck up more welath rom porivate property that is not theirs, thy will steal and lie and loot and enforce and suprerss increasingly, that is the nature of socialism. Socialiost econoimic thoery is the thoery of plundering and looting, and giving the state the monopole in legalising himself to do all that.

You know why people allow this disaster to unfold? Because they got bribed and trained and brainwashed not to know the nature of money, and not to value the value of material value anymore. People have learned that wealth comes form money printers, indefinetely, and that the majority has the right to steal and plunder form a minority, which explains sufficiently the essence of democracy. And that si why I and others say: democracy always and unavoidably must lead to and end in socialism, which always is totalitarian and tyrannic.

"Enforced solidarity...?" Illogical. Impossible. Immoral and totalitarian.Corruption or collaboration or pressure, never should be mistaken with "solidarity", the many people in Eastgermany or Nazigermany suffering from the regimes, or living silent and anxious in order to not attract unwanted attention, did so not because they were solidaric with the regime'S policy. They bowed under the pressure applied to them.

The paper money system will collapse (which is good, even when it will mean disaster, but it is a needed, hurting correction), and the wealth and culture of the West will collapse as well. And it is self-made and well-deserved, I say. I have reached a point in my life where I watch it unfolding in cold blood, and with absolutely no mercy with the ordinary population.The only innocent victims in this, are the little children. All others are accomplices in crime already, some more, some less. The consequences of what we were willing to let the elites do to us, will find us, and then will, crush us. And we deserve it.