"I myself would prefer not to deal with these issues. It's like giving a baby pig a haircut – there's a lot of squealing but there's little wool," Putin quote FTW.

My concern is not those fighting the bad guys, it is to what other purposes this massive data mine can be used. The Feds have already been caught spying on the press and sic'ing the IRS on political groups. I don't believe they can be trusted to use this enormously powerful surveillance tool against terrorists only.

I'm not necessarily talking about this administration or the next but this enormous intelligence apparatus we've created is a loaded gun pointed at our heads. Someday someone is going to pull the trigger.

Something I want to run by you..
A few random concepts like,
- probable cause (or in this case, the lack thereof)
- search warrant
- the 4th amendment

and 3 videos you might want to watch.
NSA Part 1 : I Spy With My Little Eye
NSA Part 2 : Meta My Data
NSA Surveillance: Don't Care. I've Got Nothing to Hide.

question that rises in my head is this one: are they supposed and allowed to do what they do?
if yes, why hide it?
if yes, why hunt snowden?

got a similar story over here, where the secret services were doing what they wanted, the way they saw fit, and even poroposing custom laws to protect their top level people.

modifying newly proposed laws to suit their "needs". Their agendas, personal motives and the like, Berlusconi style.

Does the public know? is such stuff handed to the press? Rarely - and when it is released, the radio stations air it, and criticize.

and then get threatned by the Politicians that run the secret service.

Secret services should be dissolved... It is a sick game to play.

And there's also a bigger question which folks are pondering over:

Just who is the real Traitor?

2 quotes so far, indirectly related to the question:

Edward Snowden



Samuel Adams

so, if the second quote defines american from unamerican...
what is snowden then?

first he reveals the bad stuff, then runs for his bloody life, "nanananan you canna catch me in ecuador"

if you kick the lion in the balls, expect to get eaten. kicking the lion in the balls and then hiding up a tree... with the pack below, waiting... makes no sense to me.

either kick the lion and be ready and able to kill it...
or wait for a better opportunity to do so.

What are his motives?
his doings have me confused.

at first sight, he is dum as a rock however a brilliant mind he might have.

Perhaps he knows about the lion but the vilagers didnt and he hopes that by kicking the lion, the vilagers will see it and kill it, since he cant do it by himself.

And he ran up the tree to yell even more about the location of the lion and give the vilagers time to prepare for the fight.

But the vilagers spent their time discusing who's an elephant and who's the donkey.

Another question for the community here:

W Snowden is a true patriot. True or false?

And a quote to follow that up, made by Thomas Paine:

"The duty of a true Patriot is to protect his Country from its Government:.

It's funny, not as in ha-ha funny, that a person like James Clapper for example, lied during sworn testimony before Congress about spying on millions of Americans because he didn’t think he’d be caught. He was caught red handed. And no one is calling for his apprehension and imprisonment.

What i also find funny is that the ruling bodies, with their corresponding mouth pieces in the media, liberal and conservative alike, along with politicians on both sides of the fence, unscrupulous military commanders and deceitful government bureaucrats have all rallied to shield their existing surveillance state.

Well, shouldn't really be too surprising, come to think of it.

Leon Trotsky, part of a brutal surveyllance state said:

"The real criminals hide under the cloak of the accusers".


As for his motives?
Are you referring to him running? Or his motif for exposing the truth?

The latter should be very clear. Crystal-clear infact.

kind of, yes.

"i show you how they mess with you"
"they will hunt me"
"killem all"

Big brother is a reality.
so what the world gonna do bout it, eh? Nobody givs a rats ass, which is why the situation has become possible in the first place.

That he didnt understand. brilliant mind and retard all in one body.

if you have a motivation, also bring the tools, or at least a plan on how to achieve the goal of your motivation.

so far i see nothing of that sort. just him ducking and sleeping on a bench in russia.

I agree it is high time to get the piano strings and hang a few politicians, be they friends or fathers... for what damage they do and distrust they sow, anger they provoke and how they split the population, set them up against one another, and stay in position of power.
It is time to shake the system, to burn it to the ground and restart from scratch with the same old Ideals, new ideas how to maintain them, and our environment, ....and the old politicians and powerful people dead in a mass grave.

But

will it happen?
so far the answer is no.
IF (!) that was his goal, to create outrage and rolling heads...
he failed.

...so far.

So far, Humans get what they deserve.
in brazil, they were rioting.
In europe people are yawning.

stupid people.

Well, if you are loosely referring to his motif for exposing the truth, then let me quote the man himself, since it is from the horses' mouth:

Words of a traitor? I think not!

By the way, whilst we are on the subject of 'who is really the traitor', as i posted earlier, and Snowden being called a Traitor by my aforementioned 'characters', for want of a better word,
treason is addressed in Article III Section 3 of the U.S. Constitution: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.


Patriotism is defined as:
A person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.

Now, correct me if i'm wrong but as far as i'm aware Congress hasn't declared war on anyone, have they?
If not, then going by the definition of Traitor made in the Constitution, Snowden isn't a traitor.

Only if exposed.
The more transparency the better.

Do about it? Hopefully see that being a patriot does not mean that you are a traitor. Really? The coverage of this seems to suggest otherwise. The aforementioned folks who are calling him a traitor would seem to suggest otherwise too. Do you give a rat's ass as to whether a government's alleged wrongdoings should be exposed and have the full amount of transparency shed on their dealings? Do you give a rats' arse whether the definition of patriot and traitor run into each other and become blurred? I hope you do, because i do. Any law-abiding citizen should give a rat's arse as to what is going on here, and more importantly, what the outcome will be I don't understand this.

I think he's far from being a retard, as you so diplomatically put it.

Woulod a retard be currently in the Moskau airport, transient section for instance?

what is the world going to DO about it, that is the goal, the aim of my question.

yes, there is talk.
but talk is all there is.
looking out the window, all is quiet here. I mean like... the UK might search the packets i am sending to subsim now... nobody protesting against such activities, the british Ambassy is not on fire yet... Nor is the American Ambassy.

not that i suggest throwing molotov coctails, but... all is quiet. I would have hoped for more vigourous, immediate, fierce reactions of protest coming right from the concerned folks - average John all over the world.

I mean... spying on the world's mails and phone conversations...?
Spies usually get caught, smacked and sent home, at best. If not imprisoned, questioned and beaten the hell out of them during questioning.

Why not just say: we from Luxembourg are going to hold the brits and the US here till we get the answers we are looking for, on this big fat spying operations that the US of A have launched decades ago?
do the Patriot thing and protect our country best way we can from such crap?
Square off their offices and start making demands for information?







BUT... since talk is all there is, i suggest that talk is all there ever will be on the subject.

Are people from the American Secret Services and British Secret Services going to lose their jobs? High Ranking people that made the decisions that led to this situation of mistrust? Next week?
Is the population of the USA, of England, of China going to know the Answers they are seeking?

No.

And since in the USA and the UK, people are not starting to agressively hunt down these snoopers, can i understand that the population of these countries is "okay" with this monitoring of Traffic?

if these counties populations are OKAY with what is happening, are they still my friends?

i would like to believe, love to see your secret services burn. Our own "secret services" burn, for they do nothing but split people and confuse them, spread distrust.

American institutons surrounded by a chanting mass of american patriots, who do not want their own traffic monitored, databased and analized. That are aware that This affects dozens of countries, countries that are like neighbors?

I would love to see that hapening, above all FAST.
Faster than Bush sent your troops to Nam II, because these Services are like Acid to your own country, any country, much worse than what ever happened on that september day.

But humans are content. As long as their stomach is filled, nobody acts.
so... we also get what we deserve.

Completely aside from precise definitions and current laws and regulations and administrative paperwork and lawyer speech.

Action is what's needed. I hear you.

Let me just point this out to you:

At this point in time the greatest fear is apathy, ignorance and delusional thinking.
Ignorance of what? Apathy of what? Delusional thinking about what?

I'll tell you:
Freedom or tyranny. That's what.
Will enough people stand and fight? Change will not happen through the ballots box.
It'll require people like Snowden to expose the truth. Taking to the streets and leading the populous forward.

He sums it up perfectly:

So how can he lead the people from godforsaken russia?

speaking for myself, i have lost hope in fat, content western countries bringing about change - using pitchforks and haulin butt kind of change.
my fears are his fears.
i fear humans are not worth of time and history remembering them.

But i would grab a pitchfork, and join the frey, if there was one to join.
take a day off to throw rotten eggs at an institution... if sait institution is harming the country i live in. why not?

Why the yanks not getting mad yet?

This man has the knowledge of what went wrong. he publishes it , and then runs off. (bad move n°1)
then is silly enough to keep up his hopes of change, without him being present to lead the wolfpack. (bad move n°2)

traitor or not, is not the question i ask.
i feel he has an honest interest to give the population what they deserve: knowledge of what their NSA is up to.

But is he a coward? his actions point into that direction!
Did he have an option to do better? i think so. i hope so.
I wish he would have gathered powerful friends and been present to bring about the change... that he ultimately wants.