Sooner or later Hitler was going to turn his sights on Russia whether England was subdued or not. He simply couldn't abide sharing the continent with a neighbor that powerful and that was going to grow even more powerful over time. If the Germans would have attacked Britain via the Mediterranean in 1941 and managed to knock them out of the Middle East, Russia's position would have been worse off, but not hopeless. She would still have all her territory, all her armies and more time to prepare. Additionally, it is possible that America would have been so frightened by Britain's possible collapse she would have sent as much military aide to Britain and Russia as possible. It should also be remembered that Stalin and his Generals were implementing many wide-ranging reforms during 1941 that would have borne fruit in 1942 and the Red Army would have displayed much more competence and skill than it managed to do when the Germans actually invaded. With these considerations in mind, it is likely that Russia would have been in a better position to resist the Germans in 1942 than 1941.

Also, a paranoid like Hitler probably would have been loathe to adopt a strategy that depended so much on a unreliable ally like Italy. Hitler was suspicious of everyone, even his allies. Had Rommel been able to cross the Suez and capture the oilfields intact (not likely) any resources from them would have had to depend on the Italian tanker fleet and merchant marine to cross the Mediterranean back to Europe. That basically put Italy in control of the oil spigot since there was no way for German cargo ships to enter the Med if Gibraltar was still in British hands.

@ Dread Knot
When Hitler declared Italy as an allie nation, Mussolini was already in charge.
So he picked a nation that was already under a fascist government.
(It's worth noting that Greece too was under a fascist government that time
but Italy was stronger in numbers than Greece)
Besides than, Hitler had no intentions invading Greece because he considered her one of the greatest nations after Germany. He really admired ancient Hellenism.
It was Mussolini who wanted to invade Greece because she "won" the Ionian Islands
after her liberation in the 19th century and WW1. (Something like the 2 German Speaking provinces Hitler wanted to take from France. Instead in this case, the Ionian islands were greek nonetheless)
Anyway. As far as i know, Hitler's main intention was to banish communism and take back the 2 German speaking French provinces which Germany given to France in WW1.
The formed alliances, although, triggered a world war and since Hitler realised that, expanding in Middle East for oil was a must.

hehe other share my view but as AVSM pointed out a concentrated effort in north africa would not have been possible whilst invading russia at the same time the germany just didnt have the forces avaible

if germany did not attack russia then britain would have surely been pounded to ruin it would just be a matter of time (barring us intervention that is)

just as every other conquerer before him russia was hitler's undoing

There's no way Hitler would have invaded Spain-he was expecting big things in return for his support of Franco during the civil war and he got a lot of minerals from there. Unfortunately Franco ripped him off and apart from some small concessions like restocking uboats and allowing "volunteers" to fight in Russia there wasn't anywhere near the payback Hitler was expecting. Still, why turn on another Fascist state?

triple post ftw:rotfl:

Sorry about that-had a few screen locks on the net, thought it wasn't being posted, but I guess it was....cleaned it up a bit now....me big dumb bum

Happens all the time to me, for some reason.

At least you know where the 'Delete' button is. I've seen multiple posts that say "Sorry, multiple post." :rotfl:

Sorry i ever brought this topic up.:down:


I am use to using slang alot from my military service days...I didnt mean to offend any english professors.:know:

Why?:06:

I agree - why? Just because I was rude enough to point out a mistake doesn't mean it wasn't a good topic...or that I was right (I was, but that's not the point).:sunny:

Sorry for the last post. I've not been myself for the last week or so. I was laid off from the railroad about 3 months ago and i am trying with everything i've got to find a way to pay for my family to go to DisneyWorld in Orlando Florida in may.

I already promised my kids back in October, so i have to come through. So far i paid for the airline tickets, now i'm scratching and clawing like hell to come up with the rest.

Anyway....i will find a way don't worry about that, we jarheads never say die!:salute:

Back on topic......I have read several of the afore mentioned post and Technically the allies DID have fighters in 1942-43 that had the range to escort bombers to the Ruhr industrial valley. The P38G Lightning(Forked tail devil by the Germans), and the P47C Thunderbolt were both used as the long range escorts early in the bombing campaign, and both had sufficent range to take the bombers to the German border.

They had to leave them a short didtance from where the battery factory was located later. The P51B with the upgraded Merlin engine did not arrive to take over escort duties untill 1943 and the D model untill 1944.

The P38 had excellent range, although it was not as effective at high altitudes as the P47 and 51. Mainly due to a very poor cockpit heater, pilots canopys would often frost over making visibilty difficult and tempatures very uncomfortable.

But they did have fighters that could escort the heavies into germany. Had the allies known about this factory early on...imagine how many U-boats would have been rusting in German ports by late 1943! Mind boggling.:hmmm:

Not really rusting. Batteries weren't replenished, they remained on board until the sub was put out of service or a completely new battery-model was service-wide installed. Germany couldn't have put more subs into service and fill up up (at least in numbers) the losses.
To go over something that happened in the past is something that only makes sense when writing some "what-if"novell. True, bombing the battery-factory would have stalled the U-Boat-war... if Dunkirk wouldn't have been evacuated, the Brits wouldn't have had enough troops left to defend England and Africa together... if Göring would have accepted the losses and the attacs on the British airfield would have lasted two weeks longer, the RAF would have been permanently out of service and Seelöwe would have started... if the Japanese would have started the third wave at Pearl, they would have found the American carriers... if the German jet-programm wouldn't have been stopped early in the war, the German would have had in 1942 enough jet-bombers to turn the fortunes... and so on.

According to the article you linked to, in addition to the Hagen plant, AFA built new battery plants near Hanover, Posen and Vienna, which began production in 1940, 1943 and 1944 respectably. Even if Allied bombers had been incredibly lucky and knocked out the Hagen plant on the first try (it usually took several bombing raids over time in WW2 to completely knock out an industrial target) the Germans were already dispersing battery production to meet increased demand and probably would have just accelerated the process.

I do agree with you completely, I'm just throwing out some possibilities.:yeah:

It really does amaze me though. With the kind of menace that the Atlantic U-boat war posed, and the incredible vast amount of resources in lives, and materials and technological advances that were needed for the allies to achieve victory in the Atlantic that there was not a more concerted effort to make attempts to slow down U-boat production such as the battery plant and other factories in the same manner that the allies made towards fighter and petrolium production. It would have cost alot less lives to send bombers than to devote 2 entire navies. One other ramafication would have been how far ASW tatics and Technology have been set back, specifically the U.S. Navy?