that may be your view on real economy, but I was directly referring not to real world events, but Subman's absurd construction . ;)

I'd venture to say your comments were absurd and mine are fine and simply showing you the errors of your ways. ;)

This won't save you when you post something completely stupid. Sorry, but i can't let you slide on a topic as dumb as this one.

-S

PS. Something just popped into my head, using this logic that it is never Germany's fault is classic Germany and exactly the same method Hitler used to get to power. Careful with your ideas.

Skybird, as angry as you are at our country, I will be the first to admit that our system is not perfect. The way you charge your words you sound as if you are angry at the average citizen for simply trying to afford a house payment, that is swept out from under his feet like a doormat ,and when they can no longer afford their payment due to economic pressures it causes backlash unfortunately for you and the rest of the world. The average American did not force the average German to buy the loans issued not from the average American, but from a not average American wall street CEO. The American people are no more at fault for this crisis than you are skybird, except for the fact that we put our trust into politicians that we have no control over once they are elected that have made horrible mistakes in not properly regulating the market. The fault is to be placed with a select few of the ruling class, which is made up of crooked politicians and greedy corporate executives.

All in all Skybird, the whole thing is real bad all around, It's a very unfortunate event that is still unfolding before us, and that we must make the best of it we can, but at this moment in time bickering and words will not make it any better, if you want to make a change, action is needed.

Well, to make that clear, as often before in the past 8 years, I make a difference between the individual standing before me with whom I talk, and the political entity the nation on the US is. There are certainly differences in living styles and mentality between the US, and the varous countries in Europe; and eventually (in a generalised, non-personal way), criticism of a living style'S details (when it is forming a major component of that people'S habits indeed) could be understood as a criticism of individual's behavior, yes. but all in all I stick to what I always said: I may criticise the US for much that it is responsible for as a politically acting, global-consequences-causing entity - but that does not mean that I "hate" the individual american person on a personal, private basis, that is total nonsens - no matter how often people like subman, Sea Demon, August or others try to make it look different, and illustrate they do not differ between their own person and the country they live which is either a form of totalitarianism or a psychiatric symptom of lacking borders between "me" and "environment".

I do not hoold Joe avergae responsible for having the desire to live in his own little house made of wood, houses that often are really not that big and special at all. when I talk of excessive spending, I would prefer to refer to a culture that is used to buy on credit, and banks having estoblished a roputine to give you a new credit card once the old one'S limits have been reached, becaseu they can make an income from encouraging you to make debts, and keeping you to be a debtor - in fact, to answer the end of a credit line with giving a new credit card is a lucrative business as long as the risks from this irresponsioble bsuiness pratice (born by greed and profit-hunger of banks) could be extrnalised and sold awqay and distruibuted around all globe. This is what has happened! When I say the Us is the greatest consumer in all th world, it is not about joe avergage gaving a car and a small house of wood in soke sidestreet, it is the generalised statistic mean value saying that per head, the statistics are this and that. But I admit this: that I have gotten the impression that america and americans take a lot of their typical way of living as granted. that is nothing unnormal, germans do that as well. It's just that gwrmans are not in the postion to export that around the world and making the world being affected by their habit, or making the world adapting to that habit. But America and Americans can do that - and it does. I think that quite some people in your nation think the world is just there to serve your interest and that it is your right to take that as granted. the interest to see a foreign place as actually being foreing, non-american, independant indeed, is relatively small. It already starts with the languge! you can travel around the globe, and almost everyhwere you can assume that you must not learn the foreign language, but you can assume that you can come around somehow by sticking to your own language! ;) the others adapt to you anyhow, so why changing yourself? Don't feel attacked by me, try to see my point.

Also note this difference i make between the political level, and the military. My attitude on the Iraq war is well known and well-illustrate by now - it totally refuse it, and did so from day one on. but I never criticies the generals or individual soldiers (where they were not involved in some scandals and prisoner abuses, nor did I ever held the individual GI responsible for the political lobbying of the so-called industrial-military complex. It just wouldn't make sense.

Take my criticism by the word on the level on which it is meant - the super-personal, the institutional, cultural, political level: not the personal level of individuals. You can criticise a nation and still be friend with a citizen living in that nation, like you can like a nation and not liking somebody from that nation. So, if you take my criticism personally, then you are wrong. Hell, I don'T know you, so how should I know wether I could like you or not? Many people here probably would give me different impressions in reallife, than they do here in the forum - and it wouldn'T be different for them with regard to my person.

I am very critically of my own country as well, just see how often and herfty I have attacked Germany opportunistic but orientationless Afghanistan-policy, or the EU. I just would like to send Merkel to the moon and think she does not have what it takes, and our great coalition is the second worst political constellation possibole with thes eparties in parliament. If I would not separate between person and nation, then it would mean that by saying all that - I would attack myself, right? ;)

I agree, deeds are needed, but I disagree on the US' - political - decision not to allow too many changes in a system that has proven not only to allow abuse, but even to encourage abuse, and already proves that right now it even motivates for abuse of the aid being given, implemented by the same motivation and comparable procedures. The responsible "hearoes" of unregulated market business illustrate this very moment that they have learned nothign and that all appell for ethically responsible behavior has met deaf ears, and greed and selfish profit-interest still are as dominant as before. Leavingn that untouched in the name of liberal market-philosophy? It will give us more of the desaSTER WE JUJST FAce, and those responsibole will get rewarded by this lacking limitation of their intrigues, and again joe Avergage will be the victim and will be left with paying the bills for the big sharks in the pool. Here, I insist on identifying the faulty assumptions and those who held them up, and to hold them responsible instead of cleanwashing their white shirts - else I cannot see how the deeds needed could take place. That'S why I point fingers. Because deeds that are needed will not be sufficient if they do not result in substantial changes to policies and lacking rules that still are being held up by some although they still cause damage that is still unfolding. Here, my criticism aims at the political as well as the cultural level, because the different living styles and ways of life are a factor here, too. were bankers or people do not voluntarily stop doing bad, they must be regulated - the market obviously does not regulate itself here, we see the evidence every day, every day, every day. It is highly questionable if it ever had that ablity.

I am no socialist. I want as much regulation as needed - but as little as possible. I am realist - no regulation at all simply collides with human nature that includes self-preservation and egoism - it never has and never will work without rules. Laissez-faire is one of the worst options. It is the path back into the jungle. sometimes, this forum is living proof for that, and the one yelling the loudest and offending the most personally, feels as the winner.

And it is not as if i am alone with what I criticise, and the criticism is not originally my own invention. It's not, really. amongst those not having profit interests in America, and not being dependant on the status quo in the global, american dominated banking model, my criticism forms the clear majority opinion. There must be substantial changes to the system. You say that thread on "Black Swans"? The guy I talked of there even demands that the system must be replaced. It is hard to argue with him since he made a fortune by his different views of things, and correctly foretold the unfolding of events.

Okay, enougn about my person again, this thread is not about Skybird and his attitude towards the US, but the recession in Germany, the global recession, and how it has been caused by the financial meltdown. Sentiments being formed by the going of things may be explained, but must not play the major role here.

Only three good things ever came out of Germany....Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Heidi Klum. I'd love to have all three of them! :)

The US inducted a rubbish bank system that had to blow up somewhen, right....but the rest of the world bought it happily :roll:

Better have had your own ideas and personality earlier, Europe, whining now about that is not fair -as much as I agree that the crisis comes from the US, it's the EU own responsability to have accepted to trade with banks who used those methods instead of creating limits and controls to prevent dirt from hitting the fan.

The US ultra-liberal banks and economists can't be blamed for being what they are, at least they never negated it. It's us EU idiots who should have been smarter not to buy that :down:

Second!

The real issue is that there is no harmony in Europe at all. Calling what they have the 'European Union' is a joke. They all hate each other. Go to the UK or France and ask them how much they care about a German recession. You'll get a two word answer, and one of the words will be "off".

The Europeans have spent hundreds of years fighting each other, and because of that history they have no monetary strength as one entity. So, one by one they bought into the US system, and when things were good nobody complained. Now that there has been an inevitable but unprecidented monetary event, they want to blame the US for their lot in life.

It's pathetic. At least the Brits see it for what it is and are not looking to absolve themselves of some share of the blame, unlike the oh so predictable Germans.

You need to educate yourself a bit about the massive influence of Germany arts, philosophy, science and engineering on forming the current global culture, then. It is one of the most influential heritages in the western culture, you know. there has been so incredibly much more than just the Nazis.

Yes and no. It were American banks inventing and selling the idea of the latest hyper-compley and super-risky financial products that many fell for - but then again, this was only possible since the massive anglosaxon dominance prevented any rules that would have prevented such shortsighted products being put onto the market. Then, many of these products are so complex now that even bankers themselves do not understand them anymore. And finally, the risk that arose especially from trading with American mortage-related financial products and transactions from second to third to fourth hands again was propagated and initiated by the american market. they wnated an anarchic wild wild west, and washington made sure that htey get it. Every fisherman knows that you catch fish in troubled water - transparency in the business was not wanted at all. act is that since roughly three years especially Germany has warned against the serious risks and the market distortions caused by the american black hole, and always was just laughed away: it just were us stupid, risk-hating germans, what do us stupid Germans know about trading, the profit comes were the adventure is challenged, and this bull**** about superliberal market without any regulations at all. I would not care if only americans alone would need to pay for the mess. But unfortunately, the greater part of the global bill is payed poutside america. Thanks, but no thanks at all for that.

Why is nobody laughing anymore?

The international finance system is so much interlinked that one nation alone cannot start to embark on an extraroute all by itself, if the others do not follow that. It's not much different than with climate issues - one nation acting alone, means nothing. the major problem has been that America denied the need to make regulation obligatory where voluntary reasonable behavior and responsible, trustworthy action by bankers and banks was not showing up. But this is not to be allowed anymore, because such a system rewards those abusing these freedom to make their selfish profit at the cost of millions and millions, and ruining whole economies. After the bailout package had been accepted and all those appeals had been made that now trust and responsible acting should become the rule - the same players just started to make profit from abusing these aid packages! WTF, what else does it take to convince american policy-makers that voluntary codes of behavior will not work when man is confronted with the choice to fill his pockets with millions if he is willing to ruin the country by that? "Me first" is in our genes, and if you give freedom to the behavior of this genes, they will dominate - it is the most natural thing in the world, so to speak. And naturally you create egopists that way that act by the motto of "me first, and the biblic flood once I am gone." You need to set limits and implement rules which to violate will cause hurting sanctions, else nobody will follow them. Is anybody leaving his front door open when leaving home, because of freedom in his country, and security will regulate itself? No. you all close and lock your doors. your accept laws, and run a police. but when it comes to economy and banking, you leave all doors and windows open and send all police to holidays - you seriously assume that nobody will take the opportunity...? Come down to earth again, this is the real life.

Ultraliberal banking like hedgefonts - does active damage by destroying healthy companies to liquidise them and taking the money as profit, leaving behind a company that once was healthy, now is dieying of it's debts. I can't blame them for what they are doing? you are wrong - I can, and I blame them for what they are doing indeed, and what they are. They are a lethal virus, and they need to be exterminated, like Ebola virusses would get exterminated, or cancer cells. The chief fondmanagers and CEO of such enterprises should be hung up the flagpoles at Wall Street, as a warning to all that there is no excuse to put private greed above the legitimate interest of the social community and responsibly dealing with the economy.

You have easy talking, for your nation never had to sit down with its many national components and finding out the hard way how to cooperate peacefully together - there were none likemin europe. You were immigrants from the beginning, and then conquerors. At least we learned to sit together any maybe yell to each other, but no longer hanging at each other'S throats - you had the easy way to just wipe out the Indians and take the land and leave it to that. The Euro despite the current turbulences has become of equal importance than the dollar, and in the long run, it is far more reasonable to assume that the dollar will lose its dominant position in global and oil trade. The inevatible event you mentioned, has taken place in america, and has been caused by the american internal financial market. you really want to make somebody believe that it has not been financial-economic America's fault that the crisis broke out, strangely in amercia, mounting into the world from america, and along the paths left by the american banking model in the world? the US are the epicentre of this earthquake, because you digged too deep!

Wrong. German popuation is less than 80 million, latest cleanings of demographic statistics have shown, estimations are at around 78 million. And zero Skybird. Skybird is just an evil ghost haunting this forum. He is not real. :88) Nevertheless the very vast majority of businessmen and finance analysts, the government, the german finance ministre, the chancellor and the federal president - agree with this ghost. Steinbrücks and Köhler'S words on repeated occasions left nothing to wish in clearness about who has to be seen as the cause of this mess. That directness is unsual in diplomacy, and only illustrate how serious it all is.

America must accept responsibility for having caused this desaster by the many flaws in the design of its financil system, and its deeply ill and unhealthy status of state finances, and trade balance. More and more of the world economy gets infested and becomes ill from it. and America needs to accept that desperately needed safeties and regulation to protect against abuse of the system like it has become the rule, are needed so that it could take place any longer. being the responisble cause of it all, america has an obligation now. Just saying once again: no rules, no regulations, is totally and completely unacceptable and just makes mockery of any lip-confessions of learning lesson from what happened.

You live in a make believe world all of your own. German engineering is respected, but the German people are not. Nor are they liked or trusted. German arts, philosophy and influential heritage is a joke.

Your Country owes more to the world than it could ever repay. Your arrogance is not surprising. Your ancestors sat on their asses as an Austrian painter took over your so called culture filled Country and set about killing millions of people in his attempt at world domination.

And what did the great German people do as Hitler grew in strength? They sat on their asses and took the view that if he was successful then they'd see an improvement in their quality of life, and if he failed then they could say that he and the Nazis were not representative of the German people and that they therefore shouldn't be blamed.

Well I've got news for you...the world does blame you. Whine all you want about the current financial crisis. If the recession really hits hard in Germany then the world will see the rise of the Nazis once more and all will see that little has changed in Germany since 1945. US flags will be burnt in the streets of Berlin, and Jewish Americans will be blamed for the world financial crisis. That's German culture.

With all that display of historic ignorance of yours, TDK, I just repeat what I told you before: you definitely need better education. German culture and history began a thousand years ago. Hitler came a hundred years ago. Is your skill in math better than you knowledge on any history and culture that is not American? I hope so. no matter, your country massively benefitted from the rich heritatge of german culture, like it did benefit from the ideas and thinking of another country you guys love to spit on, but without which your nation probably even would not exist, at leats not in it's idealistic self-perception as it is today: France.

Get some books and learn to look beyond the end of your nose.

BTW, I just can't resist since I think I owe your snobbish arrogant tone a bit, two studies done over this year found Germany to be amongst the top three in global popularity and worldwide reputation scores. In one, it even ranked as number one. America was - well, its enough to say that it was not even close to be in the top group. Glorious and being envied you are mainly in one view only: your own. But since you think the whole world is owing you and admires you, I at least can understand why it is that hard for you to see that.

That was one fine example of "realsatire" right there :rotfl:

wow...just wow

ps, thanks for the good laugh:rotfl:

Lol, I missed all the fun.

The problem with defending ones country from the criticism of a hate filled foreigner like Skybird is avoiding succumbing to the temptation of returning his fire in kind. It's not easy to do and i'm as guilty of it as anyone else.

You read "America was wrong about this" and "America is at fault for that" and there is such a strong temptation to answer it by pointing out equally hateful things about their country. IE Hit me with your fist and i'm tempted to hit you back with my fist. Talk about my sister and i want to talk about yours. Say my country is filled with jerks and i want to say yours is filled with dinkwads.

So what is a person to do in this situation? You can't attack the person because of forum rules and attacking his nationality just makes you as big of an ass as he is. So what's left? To constantly have to defend your homeland over and over again until judgment day comes and the trumpets sound? Ignore him and let his poison affect the opinions of 3rd parties and maybe even your own fellow countrymen? Defense is no way to win a war, and a forum war is no exception..

Personally I think that anyone who engages in this national criticism, at least those who make a habit of it, should loose their forum privilege not to be attacked personally. They are, after all, the one who started the flame war and protecting them just gives them cover from which to continue spouting their message of hate.