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Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher Snow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

Tip of the day : fearmongering is useful BEFORE the election, not after.

I have'nt the slightest interest in what's "useful."

Even if the EU all woke up an and realized I was 100% right today... :D....it would still be far too late to be "useful" to either "ontensible ally."

I'm just telling them "I told you so, you dorks" in advance.

That's ALL I can possibly hope to gain from it, unless you think an "uh-oh....maybe you were ritght after all" would have some sort of value (I don't. It might be amusing, but it would also be a complete waste of time.)

I'll take it further: A SOCIALIST US is also doomed.

I plan to liqudate my US assets ASAP. After which I will move to Canada.

Still don't think any of that will save me either.

CS

Dude! Canada is more socialist then the US will ever be even with Obama. Get your act together!

CS[/quote]
Dude! Canada is more socialist then the US will ever be even with Obama. Get your act together![/quote]

Oh, I know it.

I'm not stupid.

The one thing Canada DOES have going for it (over the US...well two things actually...are: 1) The new president isn't actively looking to strip your few remaining assests from you in Canada (or if he is, I've, so far, missed it...and) 2) Your country offers more opportunities to physically hide out it. To go competely "Survivalist," as it were. :D

Not that I'm any good at that sort of thing, mind you.

It would just be a last desperate act...by a completely desperate man (me).

I wouldn't necessarily expect to get away with it. But if I'm going to die anyway, I might as well die trying.

Eh?

CS

CS,

i appreciate you're a bit excited at the moment, but do try to get a grip soon, mkay?

Golly... I can feel the change already... are the troops back?? :doh:

Quote:

Originally Posted by joegrundman

CS,

i appreciate you're a bit excited at the moment, but do try to get a grip soon, mkay?

Tried. Failed. Can't.

Any other suggestions before I liquidate my assets and head north?

CS :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

I would keep two things separate, the (now dead) beacon of democracy project of the (now dead neocon) US, and the far more modest goals proclaimed by the europeans going into Afghanistan initially, and separately from the US operations. And last but not least it lies in american repsonsibility that the situation nafter the initial kick-out of the Taleban detoriated again, for the US left Afghanistan to itself again too soon, and too weak. That crippled all goals the europeans intiially had, by encouraging the Taleban to come back in strength.

I always called it a mistake of NATO to goi into Afghanistan. I alwys called it a mistake for Germany to go into afguhnaistan, for those idiotic historic reasons they have given, concering WWI and how close the history of Germany and Afghanistan always has been tied, bullsh!t.

The political establishement has no realsitic vision for Afghnaistan, and it planlessly stumbles around in blindness, hopiung for some fair cleaning the situation for them. Either

a.) the principle of absolute reaslism takles over the poltical decision-making and there is a clear willingness to call this a war and defining clear conditions for what is considered to be a win, and under what conditions bare being brought hokme again, then eventually, dspite the folly of the whole operation I am willing to accept an unlimited effort of doing what is needed to wage that war (but I doubt that Germany has the logistical capacity and that the BW is financed well-enough to maintain such a huge mission: we talk of clear and open war on almost the other side of the planet), and then still I am notz sure the war can be won, for a war in Afghnaistan in my view necessarily includes more or less war in and with Pakistan as well;

or b.) the troops pull out and are brought home. Since the current german psoitions is a mixture of refusing to see reality and dancing on eggs, I demand the immediate and complete withdrawal of the BW forces. I am not willing to risk the lives of men and women in the Bundeswehr for nothing more than this crappy political conception - better the absence of any realistic conception - that currently form thiscarricature of a government's posture on the Afghan issue.

How schizophrenic the german view of things is you can see in their absurd, hilarious rules of engagement. A symptom the naval operation at the Somali coats alöso is suffering from, pirates are quoted with saying that they laugh when they see the germans on patrol, becasue they are being forbidden to take action of any kind that goes beyond observing and writing a report. You can assault a ship right under their eyes, and the germans will watch and write a report, that's all. Great.

One thing I do not accept: to vaguely refer to alleged German responsibilities towards a follish NATO mission, or a vague idea of an alleged "shared history" we should have with Afghanistan. This latter stuff get'S blown up beyond realistic scale, and since Afghnaistan (and even more: its corruopt leaders) wanted something from Germany, Karzai did his best to hammer this history thing home, and many philantropists in Germany even were not too stupid not to believe it.

I'd like to agree to you in that Europe follows another route then the US. The problem though, as far as I can see this, is that other parts of the world regard to the US and Europe, practically all of NATO, as one block, not much seperated from each other. That means, whatever the US does, it will have an effect for Europe purely by association, american hypocrisis becomes western hypocrisis and eventually...german hypocrisis, even if we ourselves know the differences.

Another problem, as far as my understanding for the situation goes, is the following. European countries as they are now do not have a big stance on the international stage where giants like Russia, the US, India or China try to put through their interests. This situation will become worse with the gradual decline of the US and the raise of China and the far east in general. Now I do not believe the world will become a better place. The situation as it is reminds me more of the europea nation states close to the 20ths century. Bickering, nationalism and the continuation of diplomatic politics with military means will once again become the norm. The world has been in kind of a slumber after the end of the cold war and now reemerges in a shape known from before WW2. Europe needs to get its act together as a whole to play a role in that. So far the population more or less reminds me of the US before WW1, isolisationist, the worlds problems are not ours, let others take care of it.

This simply does not fly, that is one lesson history proved already. I am not pro war, far from it. But I consider war a sad reality in this world, one that should be avoided whereever possible, but not at all costs.

Now to your points, I agree to all of them, especially the last one. We don't do this just for NATO, even though we do have a certain responsebility in this regard. I am not a fan of another german "Sonderweg". We had that, it didn't work out. But beeing in an alliance may force us to commit even if we do not like it. This is the basis of cooperation everyhwere.

Nevertheless, a real war should be very carefully considered. For good or worse, Germany chose to participate in this war. We can't pull out now just so with a "Eh, sorry, we tried, didn't work, cheerio" and leave the ppl there behind to get once again killed and opressed by the Taliban. And that does not just apply to Karzai and his crowies. One thing is for sure, should we leave, and the Taliban come back, a lot of common folks there will bite the dust, if not worse. And I am not sure this is a path Germany should go. Especially in light of the stance our troops down there have, which basicly comes down to "Let us just do the job". A much more mature view then either the polititans nor the population here has. From my POV we don't have another option but to name the child by it's name and get the job done the right way. Anything else will mean: more deaths, more terror, more hypocrisis on the human level, less influence, tainted values and a loss of direction on a western nationwide level. It will have a very negative psychological impact on all sides. The chance to not get involved passed a long time ago. Debating that is wasted energy, I fear, but should serve as good example for future issues.

The alternative then would be to go to real war. just to carry on with this german schizophrenia we have right now, is unacceptable for me, the worst of all options. Either wage war, then behave accordingly and support it as that, or let it be. The German government tries to dance at several parties at the same time, trying to please every host by that - and right that is the reason why it fails at each of them. so: war, or pull out. the status quo is unacceptable for me.

But if you vote for war, then do it in strength. and then find out how to pay for that without taking new debts (obviously you cannot buy more than you can afford by your income), and how to swing thousands of troops over there without being in vulnerable dependance on good will and logistical dependance of over a doizen clans and nations both NATO members and non-mmebers. Finally secure the supply line without being that dependant, last but not least on Russia :D

I have tremedous probpems with imaging all that. the BW is not designed to be a war-solid global intervention force, like the US wants to understand NATO after 1989. It's structures are not meant for that. So, while I understand your way of reasoning, I am still not willing to follow your thoughts, but want the troops out of that maze over there.

Again, absolutely agreed to most of your points. The current path is a complete no go. It is hypocritical, hides the facts, it is unhonest to the population and majorly unfair to our troops. I also fully understand where you are coming from. I just fear a quick pullout, as attractive as it may appear in the immidiate future, will cause more problems then it will solve in the long run. We got dragged into an immense pile of a mess. Now we have to deal with it and it really does not matter who is at fault or how we ended up there in the first place. These are questions that have to be sorted out to prevent something similiar to happen once we solved this issue one way or another.

Prediction: Germany will bail completely out of Afghanistan at the first opportunity.

Obama, for his part, will reinstitute the US draft quite soon. He will withdraw US forces ASAP from Iraq....(which should thrill all you EU types)...and he'll build instead in Afgh in a show of force.

Which won't intimidate anyone, and from which he will then gradually back down.

["A Strategic Withdrawal," he'll call it]

At which point the Russians will begin to exert a "creeping pressure" of their own in from the east.

Ukraine first...then Georgia (or maybe the other way round)....

You in the EU will WANT to raise the alarm at this point...and you will try....but who can help you?

Well WE can't. How could we? We're nearly bankrupt, with everyone over here suddenly on the dole---we've just gone socialist, remember, so everyone here is expecting (demanding!) his free handout....we've got to deal with all that first.....

.....you in the EU you are screwed. Too bad for you.

[But at least you got what you all wished for--"No more George W Bush!"]

Emergency measures taken on your side of the pond! No more 8 weeks of paid vacation (cut quickly now to only two weeks)....and no more 35 hour work weeks (it's thrust suddenly to 45, or even 50, and against great protests).

Still too little to late. You never did build up any meaningful military reserves (because you counted on us to provide them for all these years), so you have nothing to fall back on.....

Too bad for you.

CS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher Snow

Oh, I suppose then you dug yourself into german politics and culture deep enough to make such a qualified prediction, hm? My respect, you'd be the first american I met actually caring and informing himself about other countries internal affairs.

To get something clear...I am not thrilled about an Iraq drawout, nor is anybody else I know. But the killing has to stop, and more important, the deaths of civilians, especially in cases of "colatoral" damage. Nothing hurts western intentions more then the deaths of innocents by western bombs.
As with Afghanistan, this will cause more problems then it will solve. This is neither in US nor in european interests. It will be very interesting to see how Obama is going to tackle this problem.

And if Russia gets bold, then that is foremost the fault of the US in getting involved in such wars in the first place. For Russia US involvement in the middle east is a present right from heaven itself. It binds US ressources, takes away US capability in countering russian endeavors and undermines US authority in general. A McCain with his sabre rattling is the best Russia could hope for, it would play right into their stratetigc interests to brand the US as a hypoctitic agressor and legitimite their ow actions. Or do you think Russia would have dared to march into Georgie with a strong US with all it's forces ready opposing it? Hardly.

So, please stop your fear mongering. We know very well what we owe the US in beeing involved in Europe for so long, but we also know it was by far not an act of pure altruism, but of US strategic interests. And something else to ponder..Germany had the opportunity to unite, the offer from the russian side was on the table, for the price of beeing neutral in the cold war. Instead western Germany chose to stick to the western allies and wait 50 years for reunification, despite beeing the premier battlefield and facing utter destruction in case war broke out. This is by far not as one sided as american folks tend to make it out. I won't even go into the military contribution Germany would have made in such a scenario. Unthankfulness? Hardly a european phenomennon alone.

So, please cut back your emotional rethorics and come back to the facts, yes? I am more then willing to discuss any of your points, as long they are at least remotely based on reality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Voting Obama alone raised the US reputation by a big margin practically overnight. You guys voted a black president. Big kudos to that, I did not see that coming. Basicly threw a ot of clichés out of the window into the faces of those thinking the US was still too racist. That alone was worth it already, if not anything else.

So, when we were electing white presidents, we were racist, now that we have a black (technically, he's just as white as he is black :roll: ) president, we are ok?

Yeah, so when is Germany going to stop practicing racism and elect their first black chancellor/president? ;)

(Just teasing ya)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Here's hoping the US have made the right choice :hmm:

I hope so as well, but I'm not optimistic about it. Can I stay with you for a couple of days before I continue on to Switzerland?:D

No problem....just remember to bring your sidearm :lol:

Jim,

What really was the right choice? We, as Americans, are equally screwed no matter the outcome of the election. No matter the decisions Obama makes, I believe he does look at it deeply and with clarity. If he runs the country like his campaign (which was brilliant) we should be in good shape. One can say running for government is very different when you finally get into government. That is very true. However, Obama seemed very sincere and he accomplished this goal of winning without resorting to going across racial and political boundries. That would indicate the people voted for the man, not his skin (all though a lot voted because of his African American heritage. That is a given on both sides of the race) and I would like to see the numbers between the races of voters. Although I think his campaign has been orchastrated, it was done well. So, I give the guy a chance. I do not agree with some of his policies but I have to respect the position he has obtained. We move forward.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Darnit, you guys certainly know how to warp a big compliment into some kind of offense! Seriously do I need to explain myself in this? In case it was some kind of arrogance you read in my post you feel bugged about, and I can see where this may have come from, I apologize. But take an honest compliment as that, please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

You sound like a very old person scared sh!tless because life changes, even so slightly. You realise you don't make much sense ?

Semi-accurate.

I am an old(er) person (48), and I am scared nearly "****less," yes.

I have lost nearly all faith in the future, that would be true too.

I guess that makes you right. Congrats.

CS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher Snow

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Here's hoping the US have made the right choice :hmm:

I hope so as well, but I'm not optimistic about it. Can I stay with you for a couple of days before I continue on to Switzerland?:D

For my part, I'm liquidating all my US assets and heading to Canada. Northwest Territories.

I'm also taking my "Guns and my Bibles." I even plan to cling to both of them (never mind that I have never owned either one until now :D).

What else is there though? And where else could I go anyway.

NZ and AUS are my only two other choices, the way I see it....

CS

PLEASE!! GO!!! And let the door hit you on the way out!