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Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

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Originally Posted by Frame57

Ben Franklin was still a man of faith. Regardless whether or not he was embraced by the protestants. He was real. He questioned things, which is good. He studied the scriptures and clearly saw that Jesus was not God...I applaud him. However that has no bearing on the fact that he had beliefs that led him to requesting that congessional session be opened with prayer.

True. One only has to read his beautiful self-composed epitaph to realise that. But the argument made by the hardcore Right is that he was a Christian through-and-through. My disagreement is on that point alone, since that seems to be the only thing that matters to them.

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Thomas Jefferson was a maverick indeed but what Athesist would write the following in the preamble of the declaration of Independance,

"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights..."

or the conclusion of the document,

"...and for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance of the protection of divine providence..."

Granted this historical document makes no reference to who this creator is, but that is moot because a creator is a creator period. Only a nitwit would imply that our Founding Fathers were really closet Buddist. These men were probably not what Jerry Falwell would have us to think. They may not have even attended church regualrly for that matter, but the point here is that no matter what their personal views were regarding God, they often and publicy cited God and prayer and divine providence. This fact is indisputable and is hopefully forever preserved in our national archives.

True again. Jefferson was accused of Atheism by the people who hated him. But he was quite reticent about what he really believed, and gave them good fodder for dismissing him as definitely not being what they called a Christian. I don't think any of the founders was what Jerry Falwell would have us believe, as you put it, and I agree that they were probably not what Ellen Johnson would want us to believe either, but again my argument is with the insistence that America was founded to conform to Christian principles, and it's my belief that those very principles were what those founders were trying to avoid having be the controlling factor of the government.

It seems we agree moreso on these matters. I am inspired at this poin to learn more about what made Jefferson tick. I think at the bottom of the brook we will find we are in agreement on most of these issues now that we see where we are coming from. No doubt Jefferson had beliefs, but they as mine and perhaps yours will conflict with what is acceptable "doctrine" of the established church. I am thankful that people stand up for what they believe in based on knowledge. It is difficult for me to find common fellowship at various denomination because I have studied in detail the subject matter of the trinity and disagree with it. Hence, I am also a heretic or as they put it "...cult tendencies". Good discussion and if you have some good references regarding Jefferson I would enjoy reading them. (PM me). Thanks!:up:

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Originally Posted by Frame57

I'm actually a lot more conservative than I usually come across, partly because my belief in maximum freedom causes me to side with the liberals on some issues, and partly because it drives me crazy when anyone argues from the point of view that their opinion is the only valid one, which many conservatives seem to do.

As for the trinity, you're in good company with John Adams, whose Congregationalist church adopted Unitarianism while he was a member.

I just stumbled on a fascinating discussion of Adams' opinion of the Jewish State, and how his beliefs differed from the mainstream. The article is good; some of the comments even better.
http://www.positiveliberty.com/2006/...versalist.html

I've read that Adams wrote condemning the concept of the Trinity, but I can't find it anywhere online at the moment. It may have been in David McCollough's biography, the one the miniseries was made from.

http://www.adherents.com/people/pa/John_Adams.html
That last source also ends with Adams' statement as president that in his opinion the US government was "...is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion ..."

I'll PM you a list of Jefferson sources, as requested.

Thanks Steve and if you do run across the article pertaining John Adams it would be of great interest. My reasons are to see if they refer to any other text other than the 1611 KJV that they may have studied.:up: