hmm i remember sth like Churchill was talking to Petain and de Gaulle that he will take out the French Navy in case France surrender cause it was larger then the British Navy.

Moscowexile has perfectly answered in his first message.
I want just say that it was one of the big Hitler's mistakes like the stop before Dunkirk wich let the brits to save 350 000 men, like Barbarossa who begin too later near the winter due many delay or like the "fixed" idea to beleive Calais as the real invasion point and keep his 15ème Pz.Div in the North long time after june 6, 1944.

For the french Navy, Toulon was of course a tragedy but also Mers El Kebir...
Personnaly, I have never understand why the ships are not going out Toulon to going in England...

[quote=Chisum]Because as you probably intuitively understood , there is a "before and after " Mers el Kebir in 3rd July 1940 . Before Mers el Kebir , many French vessels joined Britain to continue the struggle , but "after" , there was a trauma .

French officials repeatedly told the British that French large Navy would not fall into German hands and remain neutral , the surprise attack on French ships docked in the narrow harbour of Mers el Kebir has completely changed the situation . The French Navy didn't expect the attack , the ships were not armed/prepared for battle and had no chance to defend , result is 1300 dead , 1 battleship destroyed and other vessels damaged . Another attack at Dakar docks torpedoed battleship Richelieu .

After Mers-el Kebir , propaganda of Vichy had it very easy and Britain lost the occasion to rally other French pavillon vessels that would have been numerous to join the British Fleet . Britain Admiral Somerville said at the time about Mers-el Kebir that it was "the biggest political blunder of modern times and will rouse the whole world against us…we all feel thoroughly ashamed…" .

Today French view on this is mixed , i do not want to enter into details , but the ultimatum sent by British troops is known today to never have been read by Admiral Darlan and the possibility that they could sail into American waters was not submitted to his mind as he never had the chance to read the full text of ultimatum , most historians agree that the attack was unnecessary , but my point of view is that Britain at that time was in great danger ( summer 1940 ) and what happened understandable given their situation .

Though , a few other French ships joined the Allies , French fleet at Alexandria (1 battleship , 4 cruisers and lesser ships ) then joined the Allies in battle by 1943 , also later on after the Battle of Dakar , the modern battleship Richelieu , heavy cruiser Suffren , light cruisers Gloire , Montcalm , Georges Leygue, and a few destroyers, including Fantasque class destroyers who had the size of a cruiser were captured .

When Hitler tries to capture the French fleet at Toulon in 1942 (Operation Lila ) , all the ships were scuttled by the French Navy , the whole fleet , many cruisers , destroyers , and the Battleship Dunkerque and Strasbourg . Submarine Casablanca left quickly and managed to join Britain though . There is also the case of newly built Battleship Jean Bart bombed by US aircraft because the admiral refused to surrender his ship to anyone .


French Navy at the time was powerful and rightfully a worry for the British , they chose to build "super-destroyers" which were considered by the Allies as the equivalent of light cruisers. Le Fantasque was the world's fastest class of destroyer at the time , the Surcouf submarine was the largest and most powerful of its day in 1940. The Dunkerque class battleships was designed specially to fight the German pocket battleship and were despite their size precursors of a new fast battleship generation that emerged later . The Richelieu class battleships are considered by some experts as most successful battleships built under displacement limits of Washington Treaty in the world . It was the 4th largest Navy after British , US and Japan at the time .


At the end of the war , French Navy weight is reduced to 400.000 BRT , many French vessels under pavillon "Free French forces" (FNFL ) with Lorraine cross participated in D-Day operations , but it is especially in the struggle against submarines that they shined when fighting with the Royal Navy , sinking 9 submarines with very limited number of ships , drawing the respect of Royal Navy officers for their zeal and results . For instance , submarine Rubis is attributed 16 ennemy units sunk after 28 missions of war (mine laying ) , Junon and Minerve were tracking Bismarck and Tirpitz near Norway , MBT torpedo boats of 23rd Flotille will sink more than 20 ships , Courbet will down 16 aircrafts etc.. and overall , FNFL will save about 1300 British/Allies lives in the Atlantic in rescue ops , but there was also the FNFL merchant ships, one for example 1 thousand tons of meat to Malta inhabitants who were starved of meat for 6 months , but it's especially the marine commandos who distinguished . FNFL losses 25% of the merchant fleet and 10 warships lost , most famous sailor of the FNFL is probably Jacques Yves Cousteau who had a fantastic life of exploration and scientific interest afterwards , and who about 30 years later after Paul Langevin invented the ASDIC during the first World War , invented the modern aqua-lung which revealed very important for commando operations

Thank you to this very interresting answer.

But I still do not understand because for me, if it is possible to scuttle a ship then it is also possible to leave the port(except if they have not fuel).

I have videos of testimonies of several senior officer of the French navy who say all they wanted to join England. Some have even deserted Vichy fleet and crossed the English Channel by their own means.

They leave as clearly imply that the High Command officer were not all decided to disobey the orders of Vichy.

But in this case ... why did they scuttled ?

There is something that escapes me.

Takes time to prepare a ship for sea
Cannot speed awy as in SH3
Take to time to work up

Indeed , the reasons that Reise gave are correct , also surely the fact that any Frenchman that would leave the country to join the Allies was immediately condemned to death and nasty retaliations could affect his family (not only Gestapo but especially Vichy police ) .

There is alo another reason that outshadows the others , the Nazis Germans attacked with tanks and invaded what was considered the "Free Zone" by Vichy and under their authority in end of November 1942 , it was a pure violation of the 1940 Armistice signed , the aim was to seize 230.000 BRT of French warships and Vichy was very unhappy with this decision .

At 4h30 on the 27th of November , Nazi tanks enter Fort Lamalgue and arrest Admiral Marquis who was in charge without giving explanations , this was the signal for his headquarter Major Robin to give the "scuttling order " to the rest of the fleet docked at a few kilometers from there . During this time , tanks have problems to find the right way to the harbour and about 5 submarines managed to dodge the magnetic mines to escape , as well about 7 warships who were approx ready (Casabianca , Marsouin , Le Glorieux to Algeria , L'Iris to Barcelona , and a few other smaller surface ships who fled in time ) escapes in panic and managed to escape Luftwaffe bombing and KM submarines .

On the "Strasbourg " , Admiral Laborde ( pro-Vichy ) still can't believe why Hitler betrayed his word to not plan anything against the French Fleet , and refuses to leave his ship or scuttle it . It's only a few hours later , after Marechal Petain himself calls him and order him to abandon and scuttle the ship that he complies . He accepted the sacrifice because Petain told him it was the only way for the Marine (Navy ) to respect its serment (strong promise ) to never give any vessels to any foreign country


The result , on the night of the 27th November is out of approx 100 warships , 90% were scuttled , especially the integrality of High Seas Fleet (Oceanic Fleet ) and all greater warships like battleships . 39 vessels of light to very light tonnage will be captured , but they were sabotaged and disarmed which will be of no use to the Kriegsmarine . Operation Lila failed because Germans western force who invaded the Vichy zone , took too much time to capture the harbor of Toulon and gave the time to the sailors to scuttle the ships , and they didn't expect that the French Navy was ready to react quickly in case their ships would be raided , so the main reason was that Hitler broke the terms of armistice with Operation Lila and the scuttling order was supported (not officially ) by Vichy , cheers mate ;)

source : http://www.netmarine.net/forces/oper...dage/index.htm (in french sorry)


To get closer to silent Hunter III , 8 U-Boots were asked by BdU to intercept any French warship going out of Toulon on the 26th November (between Bandol and Porquerolles )
It was U-81 of Gugenberger , U-83 of Morishoffer , U-375 of Koenemkamp , U-561 of Schomburg , U-565 of Franken , U-562 , U-617 and U-77

Also , since the 7th of November , British submarines as well were posted near Toulon fleet waiting to sink any warship that would go out of Toulon harbour , it was Seraph , Sybil , P-51 , P-222 and Unseen . Unseen will be detected and depth charged by "L'Impetueuse" of commandant Barnouin , then prior to 15th of November , British sent Splendid , Sturgeon , Tribune and Unshaken

Thanks again to this second very very interresting answer.

Personnaly, no problem about it, it's my langage lol.

;)

Some photos of the event :

Le Dupleix cruiser class scuttled and
in flames :

http://www.netmarine.net/forces/oper...ge/photo17.jpg


Le Colbert scuttled :

http://www.netmarine.net/forces/oper...ge/photo16.jpg


Mameluk :

http://www.netmarine.net/forces/oper...ge/photo19.jpg


light cruiser La Marseillaise scuttled , in flames

http://www.netmarine.net/forces/oper...ge/photo20.jpg

Thank you for this post that gives me valuable infos regarding the depth charged of the Unseen. My grand father was there that day, he was NCO mechanic in charge of the deck operation on the "impetueuse". One of his men (still alive) told us last year that he recalled this depth charge episode but never knew if the submarine was Gernan or English, I guess he will be happy to know the name of the mysterious submarine:salute:

Thank you

You know, usually the resurrectors of necro-threads come in for a bit of mild mockery from the easily amused or somewhat annoyed, but if anyone picks on you over this one, I got your back. Cuz that's probably the coolest necro-thread reply I've ever seen.

So neat that you were able to tie up some of the loose ends of your family's history with something that was posted here. :rock:

Oh and welcome aboard!

Welcome Aboard french sweeper!
 

:salute: good post.

The history of the French navy during WW2 in pictures
 

I attach a link where you will see pictures taken during ww2 by a crew member of the Aviso minesweeper Impetueuse. The Impetueuse has been scuttled in November 1942, but before she has been involved on every major event since 1940. Dunkirk 1940, Mers el Kebir, Lamoriciere cruiser rescue. I have more taken by my grand father during this period but i still have to put them on line.

Enjoy it

https://picasaweb.google.com/jeanpie...mpetueuse1940#

That is cool.

WELCOME ABOARD! :sunny:

Go look at the pictures at his link! VERY COOL INDEED!! :rock:

Edit: French Sweeper, I encourage you to post something about your pics in a forum here where more people will see it - not every Subsimmer plays SH3, so they don't frequent these threads. But I'm sure a lot of them will still appreciate a chance to see those great pictures.

Start a thread in General Topics maybe. These are too good not to share with everybody.

Edit encore: OMG PUPPIES!!

Its true and I have a quote where he says "Russia will be our India", - meaning what India was to the British Empire , Russia will be for us..

I have a question to you since you are in Russia and may know things better....-
Do you believe that the attack on the Soviet Union - Barbarossa was a pre-emptive strike? Was Stalin and the Red Army prepared for war and about to invade Germany? And if so - would they have any chance to defeat Germany plus her allies on the European mainland?

I have my own theories,
but I find it hard to believe that the Soviet soldier of 1939-1940 who could not even beat Finland could defeat a Powerful Germany that ruled the whole continent.

I think the only thing that could destroy the III Reich was a war with Russia in Russia.

He went to the East expecting a quick victory, with no winter clothing no nothing.. He ended up loosing 80% of his Soldiers.
(8 out of 10 Wehrmacht soldiers were killed in Russia or in fighting Russian soldiers) and then loosing the war.

Sweden, France and now Germany have destroyed themselves as world power by invading Russia.
:nope: