A sample of how easy the setup was:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/marksh...s/outsetup.jpg

I read your post (2 up) with interest....I hope you'll not be offended by my observations but here goes:

A lot of hard work in setting up your attack I suspect....certainly more than is absolutely necessary.

'Situational awareness' IMO comes simply with gameplay experience and preferably a modicum of understanding in the RL U-boat tactics of WWII.

You are correct when you suggest that random zig zagging is not pre built into the base course behaviour of the convoy AI. However, there are many course changes scripted into covoy routes and it is not uncommon for a convoy to suddenly change course just as the player has got his firing solution worked out. Addittionally, once a convoy becomes aware of the presence of a U-boat the convoy automatically commences zig zagging.

Whilst aknowledging how fine a game AOTD is/was I don't fully understand the repeated comparisons......IMHO it is like comparing apples with pears.

My understanding is that this is a thread dedicated to the range for convoy torpedo attacks in GWX v1.03.

I offer these comments in a constructive context and without any intention that they become an issue of contention.

Regards
Jimbuna

Yes,you are right,that does steal a piece of realism from GWX.But,you should understand me,I have been playing SHIII for just 2.5 months already,and I am still far away from that level of U-Boat commanding,when you can do everything just in the same way as legedary U-Boat Aces did during the World War II.I am just trying to reach all things step by step.

For the present time,it's quite challenging even to plot a correct,successfull interception course,attack a convoy,and evade without being spotted.I think my first goal in playing GWX is to learn the basics of U-Boat warfare,master them to the cutting edge,and then add all additional realism options.It's always easier to do a harder job,when you know how to do an easier similar one.:)

And,for ideal convoy attack distance,in any case,I think the proper range for the first torpedo launches should be around 2000-3000 meters.The key idea of U-Boat warfare is not a "face to face" attack,but exactly a silent hunting.That means,enemy must be absolutely calm until the first torpedoes hit their targets.
If you get inside a convoy,both theoretically and practically you may hit only one target unspotted due to reasons I already mentioned:

*You lack speed very much in the reason of running at 2 knot speed compared to the reasonable 5 or even 7 knots speed of the convoy.

*After the first torpedo impacts all convoy will be alerted.

I am still after my first patrol on October 14th,1939 with my Type IXB U-123.And I will not even try to attack at closer ranges than 2000 meters,unless the conditions are lottery winning.Cause convoy attack is a real lottery,because you are far not advantageous to all those ships,I mean you must be slow,you must be down,you must be far away...unless you are compromised and either escape or get sunk.

Kaleuns,all you need for a successfull convoy torpedo attack is a correctly plotted interception course and a proper moment to launch your torpedoes at multiple targets.All other tricks,I mean getting inside a convoy,running just under the keels of merchants are usually a useless gaming which brings no success...as you spoil everything at once after the first activity at such close distances.

And never mind,what time of day,what weather it is.You need a correct convoy attack preparation,and that only moment,that decides everything-the moment of truth.

I will write down here the results of further distanced convoy torpedo attacks as soon as I get my U-123 out for the next patrols.

Good Hunting :D:up:

Well, biggest ships are usually in the inner columns of the convoy.

Using manual targeting, shooting at those ships is quite difficult from outside the convoy.

Maybe in late war It will get too risky to go into the convoy, and I will be compelled to hit the smaller ships in outer columns, now it's march 1940 in my career so I prefer going inside.

Only in one case (last patrol) I found a convoy with really juicy targets in the external column (some large merchants), I stayed outside the convoy while attacking this one.

Maraz

I am talking according to my personal experience.I have spoiled numerous attacks on large convoys,when I was trying to come close enough.Reasons were different-
the conning tower of my U-Boat was spotted,periscope was spotted,I was picked up on sonar by escorts and so on.

And all attacks commenced from 2000-3000 meters were very successful.There were 2 - 3 large ships always sunk without being compromised.

Convoys formations are quite different.For instance,when I sunk 3 large merchants during my last convoy interception - all of them were on the flank and in close formation,ideal for long range torpedo launches. :)

Jimbuna,

My profession is computer systems design. Although I have designed some massively multi-player gaming systems, these were not in the class of simulations. I have written game strategy guides, since the early 1990s and have participated as a beta tester of games, since 2000.

So, I cannot help but to compare designs of games that fall into similar categories with both professional and personal interest. I mean no offense to those fans of SH3 or to those fantastically talented people who developed GWX. Although I have played SHCE and SH2/PA (also SC and SC/SCXIIC/SCU), I do find the most interesting comparisons for SH3 are with AOD.

Game design issues are fascinating such as the decision to go 3D with SH3 (SH2/SC/DW 3D is highly limited), the introduction of crew management, but the lack of wolf packs ...

Equally interesting is how techniques which are highly effective in one game prove to practically useless in another. Of course, ideally a completely accurate simulation of the realworld by different designers/developers would lead to identical results.

So, that's the way I am. I know quite a few small independent game developers and time permitting we correspond about game design issues.

Once again, no offense meant. I am having fun with SH3/GWX. I am also looking forward to trying out NYGM and WAC too.

Posted from the other thread ;)

Yesterday, I just realized that it is actually possible to closely follow three escorts at once without using the map display. (I programmed the SO commands onto my keyboard.)

Tracking three escorts from the hydrophone station simultaneously:

(1) Set SO to track the closest. SO will continue to track the same escort even when it ceases to be closest.

(2) Repeatedly hit the SO report key to track the true closest escort.

(3) In the meantime, manually use the hydrophone control to track a third escort.

What I need to do is get a better handle on is what the various escort sounds mean (for example):

(1) Screws go to top RPM - are they alerted? Is it an attack run?

(2) Screws go very slowly and almost sound like they are reversing? (I have seen escorts reverse.) Are they camping out listening?

Also, how does the SO know whether a ship is closing or withdrawing? I know that sound exhibits a doppler (frequency shift), but I cannot hear the difference. Anyone hear a difference?

Finally, does each ship model have its own unique sound? I noticed that the escorts don't all seem to sound the same to me.

The ultimate question ... do damaged ships sound any different? So, I have hurt a ship and outlasted the escorts is there anyway I can use the hydrophone to identify the damaged ship so that I can find it and finish it off?

Thanks.

I shoots them from 500m and watches them go bang:rock:

EDIT - Looks like he answered for himself in a similar vein. Gotta read ahead nex time ;-D
*****

Jimbuna - with all due respect to markshot (and I mean this in a light-hearted way), he's an AI junkie. He likes to figure out what the AI does right and wrong. Sometimes he intentionally finds ways to break the ai. A good example was with Take Command: 2nd Manassas, a real-time American Civil War game. He pointed out a flaw in the way the AI handled river crossings on offense, and ever since learning that, I was never able to lose a battle on terrain that involved a river crossing.

So I imagine Mark's comments are geared solely to the nuts and bolts of the game, i.e. how realistic its' detection routines are, how effectively it prosecutes a target, etc. I think it's much more a critical analysis than any type of bashing.

I've known him for at least 4-5 years online. We seem to gravitate to the same war games. Always polite, always helpful too. While people like me just turn the game on and try to win, he takes a more academic approach.

I think I'd smack him in Unreal Tournament 2004 though:rock:

AI - sadly, that is something that both the SH2/PA and SH3/GWX teams were unable to get their hands on. Thus, being reduced to strive for realistic behavior via changing data values for sensors, units, and weapons parameters.

That was one nice things about how Sonalysts implemented Sub Command allowing modders to develop SCXIIC (Sub Command Extreme). The AI behavior was actually in many cases determined by interpreted doctrine files (with their own special language) called by various platforms and weapons as the game was played. (Of course, the downside of this it requires significantly more CPU cycles than hardcoding your AI in the EXE.)

So, for example, in stock Sub Command, AI subs evaded torpedoes by simply going to flank and running directly away from the torpedo. Unless, it was very long range shot, this was a very low percentage form of evasion, since if the weapon doesn't run out of fuel it will overtake eventually. Yes, counter measures would be dropped too, but the whole point of counter measures is to cause the weapon to take a course different than the target takes. Well, the SCX mod team changed the evasion doctrine and added a lateral component to the evasion. This allowed the evading AI to both open the distance from the launching platform, but most importantly allowed the target an opportunity to get outside of the torpedo's seeker cone before the weapon got into homing range.

---

Crimguy, I've already spoken with the GWX team and advised them that I was not degrading their very impressive efforts to improve this game ... taking it from simply a visual feast to a means to better understanding something of what went in the u-boat war. Thanks, anyway. :)

Hi all!

Was reading with interest. I thought I'd add my tuppenny's worth on my experiences with convoys. But understand that I don't get to play as often as I'd like (demands of gf!) so I'm in a Type VIIB in 1939/1940 before the escorts get REALLY good... However, I'm on 86% realism with manual targetting, no stealth meter etc, so it's not as easy as all that...

What I generally do is head toward where a convoy is thought to be... (from radio report or sound contact at 20km distance) until I'm within about 5-10km of the outside escorts. I then go to periscope depth and listen for a few minutes. If I find the convoy, I use the map-marker to plot where a ship in the main body is. Then, after a minute or so, I plot again. Repeating three or more times will give you a number of plots in a line. Extend this line about 20-30km and head for that point, initially parallel to the convoy (or heading slightly away from its course in case of side escorts running out at you) and then perpendicular to its course. When I reach the extended line, I dive to 15m and continue at 1kt at slow speed, listening for the convoy.

With any luck (90% of the time for me), you'll pick them up again still heading on the same course. If not, start the tracking/positioning procedure again. Put the scope up occasionally to scan the horizon in the direction of the sound. The first ship you see should be the front escort. At this point, rig for silent running and order all stop, ensuring that you are at least 14m down to prevent floating up and your conning tower poking up above the surface. Sit and wait for the front escort to pass, resisting the temptation to fire the electric eel in your stern tube at him. There are better things coming...

The rest of the convoy should be about 1km behind the front man. Upon spotting them you should be able to determine whether you're near the centre of the group. If not, but you're pointing in the right direction, go slow at 1 or 2 kts to creep forwards. If you've gone past the central columns of the convoy, resist the urge to turn around. I've tried, but found that at slow speed I can't make it round in time to plot solutions, and at faster speeds the escorts hear you in the water and come running... You'll just have to be satisfied with small merchants on the outside screen, and perhaps have a pop at a centre column with your stern tube... However, if you're fortunate or cunning, you'll have ended up with at least some of the larger ships passing only 300-600min front of you. For big ones, a spread of four will give a significant chance of sending them down, but if there are small/medium targets, I normally send two fish off slowly towards a ship in the column beyond the one in front, and then two fast shots at a target right in front of me. I'd estimate that, with my ropey shooting, about 75% of close shots hit, but only 25% of long shots. Occasionally however, a missed shot at a large merchant will (through nothing more than luck!) run into a smaller ship on the outer columns. This has happened to me twice before.

Generally I find that being in the middle of the convoy offers you some protection, as it takes the escorts a good couple of minutes to get there from their stations. I've had torpedoes hit before and then waited for the next ship in column to come up and shot at that too before I head down to safety. I crash dive to 150m then switch to silent and use the last bit of speed to turn 100 degrees left or right. The crew aren't reloading as we're still on silent running, and then I can generally creep off silently towards the back of the convoy. Once the escorts have given up trying to find me (often I don't even get pinged) I come up to periscope depth, scan the horizon and then reload the tubes. If a ship I know I've hit hasn't sunk, I'll hang around the back of the convoy - diving briefly if my watch spots the rear escort - to see if a wounded merchant drops out the back. If so, the deck gun finishes her off, but then the rear escort usually comes (belatedly) to try to help, and I might get depth charged again.

Once this is done, I start the whole process again until I'm out of torpedoes, fuel or patience. Generally I'll head back when I'm down to 2 torps remaining, saving them for any chance encounters on my way back to Kiel around Scotland.

Anyone agree with this tactic? If find it opens up the centre of the convoy to attack, although there's a greater risk of ramming while you're sitting still at periscope depth, waiting for the convoy to pass. However, generally I manage to get 10-15k tonnes per patrol using this method, one big ship and a couple of smaller ones. Or would I be better taking long shots from the edges of the convoy?

The ideal situation is when you see main convoy formation first and both front and rear escorts are at your far flanks.This is,a so to say,triangular scheme when you are in the main angle and escorts are in the rest two angles,and convoy itself is forming a entire line between those angles.

Any escort must never be approaching you.You see they are making very sophisticated zig zaggs in GWX and may spot you even if you run very silently.

[quote=siber]Anyone agree with this tactic?
[quote]

I use very similar tactics. I have a ship that is my main objective (usually one of the biggest ships of the convoy, of course) and my aim is to sink it, so I manoeuver to be in good position so shoot at it from very close distance (700 m or less). If I can hit something else that's good, but it's secondary.

Often firing at the second column of ships is difficult (ships tend to be shadowed by nearest column) so often I am happy with sending a stern torpedo to one of the (usually smaller, but not always) ships in the external column.

Usually I end a convoy attack with two ships sunk, or one sunk and one damaged. I do not try to reload, escape silently escorts (I avoid going to crah dive if I am not in immediate danger), and surface when the escorts have finished chase. Usually I still have sound contact with the convoy so, if I have torpedoes and fuel, I start again the approach procedure.

I am still in 1940 too, in later days I believe it will become harder to go into the convoy.

Maraz

Okay, I have done some testing (via custom missions) with a single destroyer, my sub, and the stealth meter. As has been said, you can only approach so close before they pick up passive no matter how quiet you are trying to be. Roughly, it seems that you have 1000M clearance in extremely heavy seas and 500M clearance in calm seas. I didn't get any time to experiment with scope spotting ability.

For calms seas, here are some data points of safe travel:

2kts - 1km
4kts - 3km
6kts - 6km

Now, here is the problem. The escorts can travel from 16-32KTS. In the meantime, your sub is practically standing still relative to their speed. So, how to make sure that:

(1) You don't end up within 1km of an escort and it performs its screening duties?

(2) How to be positioned well for a shot well maximizing your distance from the escorts?

One thing from my experimentation which seems clear is that, you need to predict escort positions when the convoy is furthest away, since this affords the opportunity move at a few times faster rate and when one considers the time available, this is your best chance to set yourself up. The nearer the escorts approach, it seems your options to influence the situation rapidly dimish in an exponential fashion.

I remember for Silent Hunter I, someone had done and posted a very detailed analysis of escort screening behavior. So, does anyone have any insights into how a screen works in SH3/GWX? I don't have a good sense of this. Do escorts remain in certain set quadrants? Do they keep pace generally with the convoy? Do they race ahead and then slow while standing guard? I can see that their behavior in SH3 is more sophisticated that than the escorts of SH2 which maintained precise formation until the moment of detection.

Thanks.