No one forces us to tie our hands, or keep them tied. It's just that we allow our establishements and leaders not to go into that effort of untying them. First thing you learn in almost every kind of martial arts: the importance of having a solid stand. We do not have that solid stand in the Gulf region, we allowed our leaders to push us into a position of extreme vulnerability, and that way our options are limited. we are also vulnerable towards not only the gulf states but the whole Muslim world and OPEC, since we do not attempt since decades to reduce our dependancy on them - for the benfit of our own oil lobby. we lost fourty years almost in trying to reduce our dependency from their oil, we wasted the time headlessly for just some more time to live out our excesses. Stupid. Reminds me of the deal with the devil: one life of 50 years in fame and glory, and afterwards an eternity of doom.

We need to become independant from Muslim oil, and since there is no more enough oil for all global players to please their needs and choose the origin of there oil, we need to become independant from oil altogether.

Next we must avoid to expose ourselves to such degrees of vulnerability like the Iraq war has done, and like our appeasement of Islam has done.

If we avoid these two mistakes, and reduce their effect in the future, we eventually could gain growing degrees of freedom of action. It's simple chess, guys. Just tactical play alone and setting the board on fire will help you only against an opponent that is of relatively weak abilities, and emans you are weak in ability yourself. Chess between better players is won by developing and enforcing a longterm strategy. You do not aim at just winning this pawn or that knight. You plan for figure constellations and positional advantages twenty, thirty moves away. It less spectacular, and needs more patience, yes. But there can only be one victor, and you prefer to be that one, so...

The West simply is too short-minded, and too much attracted by the sensation of the immediate present. Both China and Islam have longterm visions. That's why they "out-breathe" us.

Spot on Sky, it's very much a case of thinking long-term...which as shown by the Iraq invasion, our current leaders are incapable of doing. I definately agree with you on the oil, not only to avoid our dependance on the Middle East...but on Russia too which seems to be playing a new version of 'Cold' war with its old WP states.

I guess it's because we've reached what we see as the pinnacle of our civilisation, we are at the top of the civilised world, or at least we view ourselves as such, thus we have no long term goal, no long term future...no grand vision of a global superpower, because we (or at least the US) already IS one...whereas China and the ME have bigger plans, they are working their way up the list by buying out or subduing everyone in the way.

Or of this?

Springtime for Mahdi in Teheran.

It's just a power play by Iran ... they feel all powerful taking
hostages to show the world the power they have over life and death,
but in the end all they will do is cause the western world to have more unity
(peace of brotherhood) against Iran.

Perhaps another earthquake would convince them they have angered God. :o


all we can do is watch and pray.

Well, some watch and some pray ... many of us do both :yep:

See my sig's bottom line quote from General Hanks.

Frankly, I disagree with Skybird. The UK should have given Iran a 24 hour ultimatum to return the 15 soldiers unharmed or else an explictely named-in-advance relevant strategic/government/national Iranian target will be dust.

Repeat every 24 hours until the terms are met.

Thats exactly what should have happened. Should have gone in and sunk every boat in their navy.

Faith that God will lead England to overcome this temporary problem Iran has provided is just that, Faith ...

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen ...

Without faith England would have been overcome by fear (not to mention American and Israel) in their time of crisis.

Faith and fear are a lot of alike ... When? You might say, "Are faith and fear a lot alike"?

In the small amount of time that it takes to replace each other ... "Click"

They are just alike ...

If you need to change your signature or your ryhme and reason to plead one word ... may I suggest "Freedom"

Wouldn't that just incite them to kill the captured British?

As for your sig......
To get information, we have to marry the devil or at least employ him. You have to deal.
- General Tommy Franks

Remember the Falklands ...:o

England will not back down ... :arrgh!:

And open the floodgates into Iraq, and push Iran to develop nuclear weapons, etc etc.

Iran != Lebanon.

Possibly. But then the retalliation that would follow must be severe enough to make them think really hard if it's worth it.

Whether the war ends now or later is up to Iran. There's is the burden of responsibility.
Let's put that in context:

Franks singles out White House Counter-terrorism Czar Richard Clarke as never providing him with "a single page of actionable intelligence" and of engaging in mostly wishful thinking. Franks also believes the U.S. invested too much in electronic spy surveillance and not enough in spies. "We can't send a Princeton-educated New York lawyer to infiltrate al-Qaeda. To get information, we have to marry the devil or at least employ him. You have to deal."

So, what does that Hanks quote have to do with the price of tea in China? Who said anything about not employing proper spywork and intelligence?

:lol: Avon Lady the great diplomat!

See, even Tony has faith:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...-iran-uk_N.htm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Blair “I've been very clear throughout that the British forces do not ever intentionally enter into Iranian waters," he said. "There's no reason for them to do so, we don't intend to do so and I think people should accept there's good faith in those assertions."

That is only a strategy for a totally superior, invulnerable player (which the UK or the US or the West simply isn't). If you have Darth Vader and the deathstar in orbit around earth, you can do it like this, if you have open societies and several hundred million citizens scattered around and your military has been ordered into exposed positions and you are hanging at the bloodline controlled by friends of those you want to penalize, you better don't. First reduce your own vulnerabilities - and then start whipping the bad guy.

I wonder what kind of ROE the British have in the Gulf, some admrial was quoted saying "pretty much deescalatory". I also would like to know why vulnerable personnell in rubber boats is moving around outside the effective firing and combat range of it's home platform. That is something this novice i am does not get into his brain.

as a matter fo fact, options are limited. And this circumstance is selfmade - again.