It's easy enough to fix. Still... I can't help but feel a bit cheated. I always hope that simulations end up agreeing with my intuition, and this is a case where it clearly failed.

LOL - that explains quite a bit.

omg :oops: - my sincere and humble apologies , SeaQueen.

the old adage about assumptions comes to mind :oops: :oops: :oops:

so sorry

Assaulting a CVBG with a Kilo does not strike me as an overly tricky scenario provided that:

1. The Kilo starts somewhere ahead of the CVBG. If you have to play a noisy game of catch-up you risk detection by any accompanying SSNs. Make like a hole in the water and let them approach you (OneShot). Don't necessarily let them run you over, you don't need to get that close.
2. The makeup and arrangement of the group can be ascertained through linked intel, EW, sonar, or visual.
3. Situation awareness can be maintained through the attack so that the torpedoes will find the high-value target on the first run (Dr.Sid).

One difficulty I would anticipate would be ensuring a hit on the high-value target and not an escort. Point 3 is helpful for wireguiding, but hanging around near the surface is unnecessary exposure to those nasty ASROCs. I wonder if you could stagger torpedoes in regards to RTE range so that they would activate only after penetrating the screen. This may require some testing of how the CVBG would scatter after a TIW is detected.

If this is the case then there really is no chance of your survival. Even if the group is moving so fast that their sonar is washed out, as I said your speed would risk detection by any unknown SSNs that may be escorting the group. Given the Kilo's limited firepower and speed, you really need to take the element of surprise and run with it.

Anything beyond that I consider simply outside the capabilities of the platform. You wouldn't take a P-3C into a dogfight, don't attempt to play cowboy and lasso a CVBG with your Kilo.

That said, I also agree with Dr.Sid's evasion tactics; go beneath the layer, maintain a narrow escape profile, and GTFO.

It also depends on the screens being positioned in a dumb way. If you figure a KILO has a torpedo range no greater than 10Nmi, then you want to put the screens at least that far out in order to insure that if you're detected, it's before you are within range of the HVUs. Therefore, if you shot into the formation, with an RTE past the screens, you'd be guaranteed your torpedo would miss on account of it being over 10NM away from the target.

It's definitely possible to do it, because I've done it a few times now. In general it's not wise to operate an SSN in the same waterspace as a transiting, trigger happy, CSG. I know there's lot of imagining out there, but just because an SSN is part of a CSG, don't mean it's an intrinsic part of the ASW screen, in close proximity to the CVN. Having SSNs communicate at high speed and depth with a surface fleet is not likely to work out well, and so it's begging for fratricide.

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"if one detects one, one is more likely to detect all of them"

Like with the USS England getting six Jap boats in one blow(actually one was credited to a CVE in the task force)?
My limited game experience with kilos would indicate that it would be logical to regard them as expendable. Besides it could conceivably have the opposite effect and they could be in effect each others ECM. Has anyone ever tried to make that last idea work in a game(not necessarily with a Kilo)?

Expendable is sort of a weird term with respect to warships. I'd argue that because even the least expensive warships are constructed at considerable cost no warship is truely "expendable." The term "expendable" is sort of strange with respect to war at sea, or war in general. It implies that there's some value to be extracted from sending ships on suicidal missions. I don't see that. Some ships are more likely to be placed in harm's way than others, but none of them are really "throw aways." It's too expensive to build ships to think of them in those terms. It always has been, really. Navies cost a lot.

I doubt it. In what sense?

Which idea?

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Expendable is always a reliative term. However, Kilos are cheaper, and less tactically efficient and using them for wolf-pack tactics is more reasonable, especially as they are used by powers whose only vital interest at sea is sea-denial. The enemy would be hurt far less by a great loss of Kilos then we would by having a carrier put out of action for even a few months. However their most efficiant use would probably be against SLOC as in the World Wars.

Besides it could conceivably have the opposite effect and they could be in effect each others ECM.
I doubt it. In what sense?

Quote:
Has anyone ever tried to make that last idea work in a game(not necessarily with a Kilo)?
The last idea was "being each others ECM". I mean deliberatly using more then one sub to distract enemy sensors. They would have to be close enough at the start and manuever about, each leaving a cloud of countermeasures.
For instance they could cruise parralel at 3000 yds apart. When an enemy approachs they one breaks to port another to starboard.

I guess it also depends on what you consider to be a wolf pack tactic as well. To really defend a coast against some sort of hostile naval presense, you need more than one KILO. You don't need more than one to successfully attack a strike group.

Absolutely true. That's why they're spectacular weapons! Even one of them could sink a carrier or big deck L-ship.

I'd say any or all of the above would be good.

I think you're thinking of submarines too much like fighter planes. Since there's limitations to submarine communications, executing these sorts of maneuvers doesn't necessarily buy you much because everything happens so slowly.

It might be interesting to experiment with countermeasures like that, but personally, I'd rather just not give the enemy the opportunity to shoot first like that. I rather dodge NO torpedoes or poorly aimed counterfire than approach a target with the intent of using countermeasures to hopefully distract the torpedoes he shoots at me, particularly when I have the opportunity to avoid detection entirely up until I get the first shot. First shot confers a HUGE advantage.

Something I might try to do, would be to use one sub as a diversion, then follow on with a second submarine from another direction. If you put them too close together, though, when one gets detected (and he's supposed to be because he's the diversion), the second will probably be too, so the tactic fails and the fact that they can hopefully benefit from each other's countermeasures is sort of a consolation prize since the attack itself has failed.

*whispers* Line by line can to some infer adversarial posting in the usual forum etiquette. Try slightly less subdividing in your replies */whisper*
*edit for sematics*

That's odd to me. I've been on the internet since the early 90s and sometimes I have seen people do it in an adversarial way, but when people post longer messages, it's also struck me as a good way to respond with clarity. If people are taking my posts as more adversarial than I intend them to be, I'll try to be more careful.

LoBlo I cant agree that SQs 'line by lines' could be perceived as adversarial. Looks like an exception to your ''generally infers.'' Incidentaly just on a question of semantics - one infers from your statement that you meant Line by line generally 'implies.....'

It was a reasonable discussion triggered and maintained by SQ. Adversarial posts come from lurkers, acting as self-appointed referees, whilst not contributing to the discussion. See also Wetwarev7 (New Patch 1.04)

This post is in itself, for demonstration purposes only, an example ! ;):lol:

Now that you've fixed your scenario with appropriate sonar speeds has it altered your probability for success any? (btw, thanks for the LLOA equations. I've been looking for those for a while now).

Ive notice this trend as well, that most scenarios fall into the trap of going too fast to be effective sensors. Problem is that calculating the sprint and drift ratios (how fast and how long to sprint vs drift) is somewhat annoying and most don't want to take the time to do it. (I know I don't). Preplanned sonabouy lines seem a lacking as well.

But I agree with XabbaRus, this question of tatics begs exploration from the ASW escort side as well. Intuitively, seems like the only last ditch tatic would be to have two sacrafice escorts immediately adjacent to the CVN to charge into the line of fire of any incoming torps to take the hits in place of the LHD/CVN.

It's made it harder, but it's still do-able.

You're welcome. I made a spreadsheet so that I could use to visualize them and look at different possibilities at once. I use it both for game play and for scenario design. My big axe to grind is that people need to think more about geometry in scenario creation. So much of naval warfare is geometry. It doesn't need to be in exacting mathematical detail, but they do need to be aware of what the critical variables are. That helps one understand where to insert the randomness (random boxes, random start boxes and dynamic locations) so that it has some impact on the outcome. It doesn't take a lot of complicated scripting to make a mission that's replayable as long it captures the essentials of an interesting vignette.

Sprint and drift is one of those tactics you read about but nobody really does as far as I can tell. The ideas are explained in the first chapter of Koopman's Search and Screening, which is basically the ASW tactics bible, as far as I can tell.

I'm disappointed with AI controlled airborn ASW in general. They don't replenish sonobuoy fields. They don't really search an area with sonobuoys if given the tactic "sonobuoy search." The helos will only ever lay this little box shaped pattern that stays the same size and doesn't expand over time.

In fact, if there was one area I'd say DW really needs work I'd say it's everything related to aircraft. I won't even go into how annoyed I am with fixed wing aviation in general.

I'll see what I can do. I have projects in the oven, but I don't always have the time to finish baking them, ya know?

I had to use sprint'n'drift in LA when following Red October in recent SubGuru's mission. Red October (RO) is doing some nice 15 kts and I have to stay in touch or even get closer .. but I was aware he can do 'crazy ivan' or simply slow down .. so I had to drift for a while, check demon for RO's RPM .. than sprint again .. really nice mission design.