Dan,
Agreed on personal attacks. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Individual thought makes us individuals, unique in our own way. I often find that those who engage in personal attacks and profanity have been corned and are fighting their way out. In what light anyone sees someones opinion as flawed must open their minds to the possiblities presented before them, digest it and analyze it's potential. It is at this point this person should make logical, analylitical conclusions or retort. Always with a civilized tone. Your opinion is as much sought after as anyone elses who wish to participate.

Mookie,

Thanks for kind words. Digging into my Uncles endeavours during the war was quite a trip and what a trip is was. It definitley enlighted me in both corners and made me a better person for it. During my quest I encountered many who were their and willing to provide information. Both German and American alike. You will often read of the old warriors from both sides meeting after 50 years since a battle between the two had taken place. THEY ALWAYS LEAVE AS FRIENDS AND STAY IN CONTACT. This is where the maturity stands in. Two warriors, young in age, willing to kill each other for sake of country over 50 years ago. Today, they understand, have grown wiser and become damn good friends. Once again, proving that both side were human and I'm sure just wanted to spend a night in pub having a good time. I think I would be hard pressed to find two on opposing sides with the common bond of WW2 that would not come away from a meeting not feeling like they have made a friend.

Kuzz,

Losing a family member is terrible specifically if it was done by auto acident or something of the like. If ones life is given in the line of duty and in protection of the freedoms offered then it is not in vain. Today, my wife and two daughters live a free country without oppression. It was this ultimate sacrifice of my Uncle and MANY like him that afforded this great pleasure to my family. This goes for every country weather the aggressor or non-aggressor whos sons and daughters gave it their all in the best way they knew how. We have to remember these were young men, 19-22 years old full of piss and vinegar. Today the piss and vinegar has all but gone and a general understanding is present. Again, the human factor for both sides.

As far as winning the war. Yes the Allieds won the war. But in hindsight the Germans won as well. Germany could not go on with the leadership of Hitler. Hitler had great power/persuasion over the German people. He used it in the wrong way. Do you realize what a great nation Germany would be today(not that it is not a great nation today) if this power Hitler had was used for common good? Just the sheer technology the Germans had developed alone would have made it a great nation back in 1939. Jet engines, flying wings, U-boats, rocket motors, the list goes on. Just that alone shows what a nation it could have been during these years. Now we understand why the mad dash to take Berlin because we knew there was plenty more technology to be had. If this technology was used and shared with the great thinkers of the time we might even be using hover cars today or some other out of this world technology. I often chuckle looking at the technology we have today was a result of German engineering. Not to say we did not have our day in the sun!!!

Here is a case and point. In the Pacific, the Americans found a almost intact Japanese zero. It was taken, put back together and used as a trainer. It was also analyzed for it weakness and its potential. As a result, the Grumman Hellcat was created. The Hellcat defeated the zero in just about every engagement once it hit the theater of operation. German V rockets and the technology has given us the Space Shuttle as we know it today. If all the technologies were pulled together at this time, man, wonder what we would be flying around in today or driving to the super market....

My grandfather was a tank mechanic in the Battle of the Bulge. He's passed on now but from what I remember him telling me when I was young, his unit was one of the first to come along the concentration camps. Anyways, he luckily survived the war and came back home to Ohio. A few years later, a German man about his age moved in down the street. They became friendly, and it came out later that his neighbor was at the Battle of the Bulge on the German side. From what I was told, they would sit on the porch and drink beer and trade stories.

As you said, it illustrates the point that soldiers are human beings, no matter what side they fight on.

Here here, Mookie! I would have loved to talked to your Grandfather. I bet he was simply horrified with the camps. No doubt in his young mind such atrocity could not be happening but how could he deny this when it was laid out before him? The camps were abyssmal. Simply evil. I'm really at a loss for words when it comes the camps. I do, however, believe that many of the German people did not know this was going on. Once liberated the civilians were presented the camps and told to bury the remains. Fitting at the time. Germany still lives under this dark blanket of history. Several camps remain standing as a grim reminder. But, as you stated, a German miliitary man from the Bulge moved in down the street from you Grandfather, became friends and shot the **it over a few cans of, I hope, good German beer! Truly awesome! Man, if you knew then what you know now and spend your time studing things from WW2, what questions you would have. Not only that but answers right from the horses mouth!!!! If you get a chance, as any family members for pictures or letters from you Grandfather that might still be around. You will find out some amazing family history. I asked my mom about Uncle Chip and did she pull out pictures. I have his wings that he received when he became a fully commissioned B-17 pilot. I have letters and a neckless he mailed over from England to my mom when she was a little girl. I have made a shadow box of all the she had hidden away concerning Chippy, as she called him when she was little. My other Uncle, Ed is still alive in NJ. He is quite old at this point and not quite there anymore. He talked about the war with me once. Never again did we speak of it. He was so mentally affected and this was a dark period in his life. He enlisted at age 17. Lied to get in. My grandmother offered him a new car if he would not go but he went anyway. He was an aircraft mechanic on carriers and also worked on torpedos. Since the war he has never been on an airplane. He just won't fly. The hot dog pilots took it right out of him!!!! He is great man and I have deep respect for him. He has his brother Purple Heart framed and hanging in his home. The loss of Chip just did him in. Anyway, he married my Aunt Jean who was a WAVE. She looked after 35 nurses in the PTO. She was a tough old bird and got that way because you put 35 cute nurses with thousands of GI....you got a problem on your hands LOL. Family history man, ask the elders in your crowd what they have and you just might be surprised.

@Subwolf

I really cant believe you think that way. Hitler started the war, not the soldiers. I dont like the war in Iraq so should I hate the whole America because of it, instead of just hating Mr. Bush?

The soldiers didnt plan the killings of the Jews, so dont blame them about it. And before you say, that the soldiers had choice not to do as ordered; sure they had two choices, kill or be killed.

And now, as I got started. Do you hate Russia too? Stalin killed almost 20mil people? Or the Americans for dropping the A-bombs that kill still, over 60 years after the bombs?

Very well put Dowly :rock: :up: It's more often the politicians who make the policies and the leaders that dish out the orders that are the ones responsible and who should be held accountable :yep:

the general discussions topic is the role of the crew of the uboats during world war 2. i tried to figure out my opinion:war has to be avoided, always!
I never showed profanity or anything else, but i don´t want to be rebuked only of my opninion! in fact, when you read my first post, and the response i got to it, you will find out, that many things were assumed which i neither wrote or meant. this is not a fair behavior and i am very sad that this happening.
my view is and will be:
war is unecessary! to defend your country, war might be inevitable, but this does not trivialise a war.
i´m sorry if some do not agree with this, but they should not call me a person, trying to abolish democracy or even trivialising the Nazi Regime. this is unbelievable.

I have the feeling that such discussions never lead anywhere as every one of us has strong opinions on the subject. That of course does not mean we shouldn’t have them. On the contrary, I feel they are important as they allow us to exchange our opinions.

In the case of Germany in WWII my view is like this. Germans did support Hitler. Probably they didn’t wish to see the mass exterminations and the genocides but they did support his idea and view of the Greater Germany that controls Europe. Therefore they did go along with the war, the persecutions of the Jews and the erosion of the Weimar Republic due to a strange sense of duty and obedience to the Fatherland. Obviously that does not make every single German a war criminal and a monster (or anything else you would like to call them), but it does not diminish the level of responsibility for the actions of their country. Something that applies today for the US citizens and the occupation of Iraq, or the British and European citizens and the war in Afghanistan and so many other places. I have the feeling that calling all Germans murderers or responsible for the war is the easy way out, as it covers the guilt, responsibility and possible crimes, other countries can be called to account for that period. Let’s not forget that the Allied soldiers were also killing civilians (innocent or not depends on who’s side you are actually-if they belong to the opposition you can call the collateral damage) Obviously war is a horrible and dirty affair and its results can be (and were) devastating. I do believe that no one can call the German soldiers heroes or villains. They did their duty for their country and for what they seriously believed to be correct (i.e. the global fight against communism, taking revenge for the result of WWI, even the purity of their race). Let’s make one thing clear here. I do talk about the ordinary soldiers here and not the SS, concentration camp crews etc. These do belong to a different category that probably need another thread and maybe physiological evaluation as well. The German soldiers fought for their country with bravery and resolute determination but not more or less than the soldiers of other countries. They were ordinary people who had families and thought that their country was in danger. Think about it for a second. Doesn’t this argument apply for the Allied soldiers as well? Of course it does. They also fought for their country and for their beliefs. So how can we say that they cannot be considered as heroes if our soldiers do??? For that reason I do believe that we should see all soldiers of all sides as combatants and give them the respect they deserve. They fought and gave their lives for their country, their future and their beliefs. In my view there is nothing more gallant than that. We do hear today and for the last 50 years the victors’ side of the story. I do not dispute it or argue against it as I do believe that the Nazi regime was an evil one and it lasted far more than it deserved. What I do believe though is that we tend demonise far too much the Nazis and forget that life is not jut black and white but has shades of grey. I do not advocate that Germany was correct in declaring war to everyone who was not speaking German but I do not believe that 50 million Germans woke up one morning and thought out of the blue ‘It would be a good idea to go and conquer the world’. There were other issues behind it (Versailles treaty, general fear in the west of the Communist regimes, German isolation and economic depression etc), issues that the Allies had a certain responsibility (how much is debatable).

Dowly we agree in almost everything you say.
Unfortunatelly it's part of human nature to go out and kill each other. 100,000 years of evolution and 6,000 years of civilisation did nothing to make us better. I guess we will see things like this in the future unfortunatelly.

Also as far as the soldiers are concerned you're right. it is kill or be killed, and after all what do children and old people have in common??? They do not fight back. They were soft targets, and if your choise was kill the old man or go to the Eastern Front and face the Soviet tanks I don't think many would have managed to bypass the self preservation issue here.

Melbionian,:up:

Well put and to the point. The thread started a general discussion on the common German soldier/Navyman. Not unlike you or me. One insignificant person in a iron tube floating out in the vastness of the ocean with one directive from his higher ups as it were. This was not about the dreaded SS and its diabolical practices. This was about the commom man either German or Allied traversing the ocean in a machine I would have second thoughts about taking on a voyage weather for aggressive acts or just sightseeing. I see you brought up the word isolationism. Was this not what the Japanese had accomplished? We all know the outcome of that particular part of the war as well. You are correct, it was a kill or be killed situation and many Germans were caught up in it but still wanted no parts of it. God forbid(and Donitz) that you show cowardice in the face of the enemy. You will be put in front of a firing squad. Yes, I agree that we do need to look deeper and long before 1939 that lead up to the war. I do believe that is another thread in itself as you stated! But alas, the German soldier was not an automaton. There are German heros that fought heroically to protect family, country and beliefs. Unfortunate most get their history lessons from Bollywood porducers who have a tendency to portray the German soldier as evil. Even Darth Vadar has an SS quality about him. When in all reality as you stated, the German soldier was just protected ones own. These soldiers did not pick a fight, they were told to join in or be shot. Did some join in with shall we say with glee? You bet they did. I believe most joined in because they had no other choice. The Germans did support Hitler. Unfortunate that Hitler used this in the wrong way. People got sweeped up in the 'hype' for lack of a better word. I'm certain that a large majority were not aware of the mass exterminations and if they had known there would have been more outcry. Yes, all in the country should bear responsiblity for this action. Unfortunate for them they were rooting for the home team and must bear the loss of the game with the rest of the teammates.

But back to the original thread, man, machine, tiny speck in the ocean. What was going through his mind?

I'm glad we agree AVGWarhawk:up:

To come back to your original question I would say.....To Survive

I know it's not as galmorous as we like to think but I'm affraid it's the truth:yep: :yep:

Ole,
Perhaps this is where it went sour, you stated what the crews role was as the thread topic noted above from your response. In all reality it was what this man (German crewman)was thinking and doing in the vastness of the ocean floating around as insignificant as ant in a hay field. Less than a handful of what I would say dependable devices to get from point A to point B. That is all. The thread has grown into something more which is excellent because open minded discussion always make for good entertainment and I just might learn something!! Please join in and give us what you got. All opinions, thoughts and point of fact are always welcomed.:up:

As I am also musician, here a fast translation of parts of a very nice french song from Jean Jacques Goldman (hope its ok, english not my original language) :


If I had been born in 1917 in Leidenstadt
On the ruins of a battlefield
Would I have been better or worse than these people
If I had been born German.

Raised in humiliation, hatred and ignorance
Fed with dreams of revenge
Would I have been among these rare consciousnesses
Just a tear in the middle of a wild stream ?

.....

We will never know what's really in our guts
Hidden behind what we show to the outside
The soul of a brave, of an accomplice or an executioner
The worst or the most beautiful
Would we be among those who resist
Or one of the sheep in the herd
When it would come to more than words

....

I hope that you and me are spared for a very long time
To have to choose a side.

Melnibonia...excellent response dude. No doubt his forefront thought was to survive and for what? Family, friends, a future? You bet'cha:up: Gosh, these guys were almost.....human! Go figure. Case closed! Thanks Menibonian for bring it home!