^ CLASSIC!! :)

Here we go again:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-39255181

I hope that this time the pro UK side can actually come up with a positive case for remaining in the Union beyond money.

That's if there is one?

Mike.:hmmm:

PM May has called her bluff and Sturgeon is so stuck in concrete she will fail to see the average Scottish voter is getting fed up with the SNP. I will say now the SNP is going to loose some where from 10 to 20 seats in 2020.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39251876

8am
Meeting with Oberon
10am
Coffee and Cigars with Oberon
11am
Phone call to STEED, another meeting cancelled reason STEED is on holiday.
12PM
Train to jim's
2pm
Afternoon tea and smutty jokes with jim
4pm
Train back to Oberon's
7pm
Hanky panky with Oberon

8am next day
Train back to No.10
12pm
PMQ's


Well this is a eye opener... :hmmm: :03:

Pretty much says it all for me.

Sturgeon is totally blinkered, she should concentrate on helping the Scottish people and not selfishly trying to fulfill her own personal goals which she has clung on to since she was fifteen years of age when joining the SNP.

You could make the same accusation against Mr Farage, and yet he kept on and achieved his goals. There are few arguements you can make against Scottish independence that cannot be dismissed in a manner similar to that which the leave camp dismissed the remain camps concerns in the prelude to the Brexit vote. I suspect that there will be enough irony to go around with indyref2 that if Scotland were to harvest it it would be able to flood the market. The 'Better Together' group made a lot of promises in the last referendum, and I don't think a single one has been delivered, so 'Fool me once'. I wish Sturgeon and the SNP the best of luck this time.

On the subject of Scotland remaining in the EU if independence is achieved and Brexit takes place....

Scotland would have to apply because Scotland are a part of the UK.

Should Scotland choose to split from the UK Right now or within the next 2 years then that automatically ejects them from the E.U.

Scotland still has to apply to join the EU and there you have the final sting!! Go to the back of the Queue or as they say on the other side of the pond, the end of the line.

Spain would surely object on the grounds it would encourage Catalan to gain independence (to give just one example).

Spain has clearly said they would veto Scotland.

True that :yep:

As you said the Catalan factor has made Spain firmly saying no. Of course Catalan may change their minds which may make Spain re think.

Nope, can't see that happening, the fight for independence has been going on for too long now.

Similarly with Greece, should Turkey ever get close to joining.

Then Scotland is boned and the SNP are living in fantasy land.

Until and unless the situation occurs, we aren't going to know the actual answer to what Spain will do, do we?

The Spain angle is dismised out of hand by most SNP supporters as part of "Project Fear" anyway, so the No (Remain) side can't use it as it's a busted flush.

As for the economic arguments, people still voted for Brexit despite all dire predictions as to what would happen to the economy, remember? Most Yes (Leave) supporters aren't going to pay more than lip service to that argument than the most ardent Brexiteers did.

I did post this:
And that means coming up with something other than "Spain will veto" and "the economic arguments don't stack up" as that was used back in 2014 and 45% of those who voted back then still voted to break up the UK.

As much as this is an internal Scottish matter it does affect the rest of the UK. Not as much as Scotland, granted, but there's still an effect to be felt. Considering the situation up here, it behooves the people and politicians in the rest of the UK to start thinking of something positive to say about both Scotland and the Union rather than the usual crud we normally have flung at us about being a "financial drain", "Irn Bru" and "Deep Fried Mars Bars"! That's stooping to the same level as most anti-English knuckle dragger you can get. People have to rise above that sort of rubbish. Remember what I've posted previously about how Scotland see's itself and it's relation to the Union. Anything remotely negative is ammunition for the SNP.

Mike.

I'm confident I'll have posted the fact I'm for the union remaining intact (just too bloody lazy to look) but I'm also of the opinion that should Scotland have a majority of those leaving then so be it.

Since the indy referendum in 2014 the facts are that currently the Scottish budget has become worse (aided and abetted by the slump in oil revenues) a major means of incomee.

I think it would be fiscal madness for Sturgeon to push her personal/SNP agenda at this moment in time.

I certainly don't consider myself a knowledgeable person on the subject and the above is purely my personal opinion.

I wasn't getting on at you specifically, Jim, but as more of a generic rant about what as I see it is almost complete apathy about the Union within the UK. England especially.

In many respects being a bit too "hands off" with regards to Scotland and, let's be honest, Northern Ireland, has now begun to bite the UK establishment on the rear. Too many people in the different parts of the UK don't have any real idea about the other areas. The same is true within those areas. I doubt someone from Hampshire really cares all that much about what happens in Newcastle as long as it doesn't affect them personally.:hmmm:

Even prior to devolution Scotland was run from the Scotland Office as what is best described as it's own fiefdom, almost completely separate from how the rest of the UK was governed. The same applied in NI. Devolution cemented that tendency even further.

At the end of the day the current situation is down to Labour and it's seeming inability to keep it's Scottish wing properly integrated. If it had, it might just have noticed the rot within that wing early enough to take some form of corrective action. A similar situation applies to the Conservatives, although it's exacerbated by their tendency to be a party of the south and Home Counties.

Anyway, John Curtice on polling analysis:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-39264468

As clear as mud, but peeps up here knew that anyway!

Mike.

Looks like the SNP will go ahead with a second referendum Sept 2018 - May 2019. If they ram their agenda like sticking a gun in the voters face and telling them how to vote it could backfire on them. Could the SNP be plotting with Wales and NI to fragment the union on more fronts, only time will tell.

I'm well aware of that Mike, in fact, I always look forward to your input on this thread.

You and I are but two grains of sand in the desert but nevertheless entitled to our opinions.

If and when a second referendum is forthcoming I've actually got pretty strong views on the matter and even stronger should the eventual decision be to break up the Union.

Tis always gratifying to read this thread and observe no personal insults or name calling occurs and long may that be the case.

None of us is as clever as all of us.

The UK government will of course allow another Scottish referendum but I do not believe it to be wise or right to have it at the times the snp suggest.
The difficult negotiations connected with brexit will still be ongoing and the true result of those negotiations unknown.
It would be wrong and irresponsible to expect the UK government to be negotiating brexit and fighting a remain campaign at the same time.
Scotland would be making their decision without knowing the full extent of our future after brexit, it would not help our negotiating position and it would water down our ability to get the best deal for RUK and Scotland should it choose to remain again.
After the brexit deal is done is when Scotland should vote again.

Scotland plus the rest of the UK is all UK and a net payer into the EU. Scotland without the rest of the UK is a net receiver. And that is all what it is about: money. Skip all that talkign about national rpide, dieals and values: they want money form the EU, and that is all.

I know that politicians do not care for such annoyances like realistic facts and costs, but I do. If the Scots want to leave, fine, it is their natural right, no people is property of another people. But I would only wish that the EU makes it clear to them that they are not automatically new members of the EU with us Germans, Dutch, Fins and Austrians wanting to pay their bills. Of course the scum inBrussel will not dare to say that but insist that every new memeber, no matter how weak and depending, makes the union stringer, not weaker. That belief is against plain reason, but the EU has never had anything to do with reason.

I also think that London should deliberately refuse to pay any membership fees beyond the day its formal membership in the EU ends, forseeably in Spring 2019. Thats what ending a membership is about. That 60 billion Euros by the EU claim is an arrogant joke. In the medieval, when a vilager died, the village had to pay a comeponsation to the landlord for the slave's working powre having been lost. Junckers still seems to dream of those days, and that I think the EU's self-declared elite to have a feudal self-understanding is nothing I say for the first time here.