What makes a simulation is the feeling that you're there. In that you have good points.*

A simulator, on the other hand, represents the procedures involved in actually running the equipment and conducting operations. SH3 represents that quite nicely, and lets you run any major u-boat type during any phase of the war, and in any theater u-boats operated in. When SH5 gets to that point (and I'm confiident, or at least hopeful that it will) it will cease to be "just a game".


*Yes, walking to stations is a definite improvement. I am of course biased by the fact that I've been playing these things for twenty-five years or so and in all that time we've never had anything like walking, so it's something you learn to ignore. That said, I think the better way would be to hot-key the station and have it walk you there automatically. That way you could click 'Dive' from anywhere on deck and have it take you to the conning tower in real time, which is much better than having it tell you you can't dive because you're still on deck.

The "huge hugly dials" just happen to look like the real ones. I use a mod that removes the entire UI from the screen and turns it into a set of slide-outs. For me it's the perfect compromise.

"Lock on target" represents the fact that the captain can keep both hands on the periscope handles and the target centered in the reticle. How is that not realistic?

The DRM scheme is tyrannical at best. The fact that anyone without a stable connection is locked out affects me, even though I have a good connection now. But even if that is lifted, and I buy it right away, I will still have to keep playing SH3 and SH4 if I want to maintain my habit of running simultaneous careers out of all available flotillas and in all types of boats. So when SH5 lets me do that it will become my sole subsim.

Comparisons of immersion and simulation factors are of course subjective. My original post was solely in response to the intimation that if I didn't buy SH5 I was not "a true sub simmer".

I'm not going into a sh3 vs sh5 debate, it's already boring. For me sh3 is history, period. What I wanna say is that the perfect subsim should have no UI at all, only voice command and a full 3D environment. Then just look into scope and give the crew your commands. Like a real captain did. Also, it should have a living crew with whom we can talk or even shot them if they disobey orders :P But I stop here now only because this will never happen under Ubi logo, so is pointless to talk about.

PS: I fail to understand whats the problem with the dive command. How the heck the sub suppose to dive when the captain is still on the deck?! Use the ladder, go safe then order dive... dunno why is this hard, why some people have such a hard time to use that simple ladder. For me to dive takes 2 seconds, jump into the hole, press F, done.

Well, there is a voice pipe on the bridge. Alternately, I could just scream ALLLAARRRMMM!!! down the open hatch - says so much with so little.

Intriguing!

It might have been interesting if the devs had allowed the captain to screw up. Say, by ordering a dive, watching as the watch crew fly down the ladder, navigate down the ladder into the conning tower, and, then, forgetting to close the hatch and watching the water pour in! :O:

Oh well...

And? Expect the sub to dive and leave the captain out? Should work for a Benny Hill sketch, not for a subsim.

And yet when I criticized SH5 you started the debate yourself. All I did was defend myself against an intimation that I and those who haven't bought the game aren't "true sub simmers". You still haven't answered that.

Simple. The senior officer on the bridge gives the dive command. The crew scrambles down the hatch. THEN the senior officer goes through himself and dogs the hatch behind him. That's the way it's done. It's hard to hear you claim SH5 is the superior simulation and then defend one of the things it gets wrong.

Aside from running any major u-boat, SH5 is already at that point. I appreciate peoples stance on the drm, but SH5 is indeed a sub sim. The gameplay between 3, 4, and 5 is almost identical aside from a few things. Not owning it doesn't make anyone not a true sub sim fan, but a lot of misconceptions seem to be spread by those who haven't played it. Eventually I'm sure the drm will be dropped and a lot of folks will be able to see SH5 for what it is, a sub sim. It has issues that need to be fixed just the same as the rest of them. I think the drm alone has been the reason of many inaccurate claims about SH5 and I like you guys, cant wait until it is dropped.

I agree with you here on all accounts, well said.:up:

It would have been simplicity itself to create a command that, once the dive key was pressed, forced the player viewpoint down the hatch and into the interior of the boat - just as happens in SH3, but with a smooth camera movement, rather than an abrupt jump.
This would have looked good and been an immersive experience for the player.
Naturally the SH5 devs chose not to do this, and instead chose the most idiotic and unimmersive route of forcing you to go inside and then press the dive key.

I know that's a typo of ugly, but I like the idea of having "huge huggly dials".

If I had my choice, this is exactly how I would have the dive command work if you were outside the sub.

:haha: Do you think we could have cuddly gauges also?:haha:

I didn't even notice that! :damn::rotfl2:

I disagree. Does adding tonnage requirements and offering different branching campaign options make it more realistic? Talking to the crew may make for a better role-playing game, but does the ability to have the same trivial conversation over and over add to the simulation? Does boosting morale by having the cook prepare a 'special meal' increase the immersion? I would argue that none of the above were necessary to a proper simulator, nor even desirable.

To my mind the perfect simulator would have been AOTD's AI and gameplay, SH1's campaign structure and SH5's graphics.

True, these things are not necessary for simulation. At the same time they do not take away from the simulation they were built around.

A good point. And while old problems aren't fixed and the new ideas are incomplete, it doesn't mean that it has to stay that way.

And I'm one of the ones who is definitely looking forward to playing it, or at least working on it once the DRM is lifted. Again, my whole responce was originally to that one statement, and I do support SH5. Of course if I had it right now I'd almost certainly still be playing the older ones, just as I still play SH3 because even though SH4 is basically better it's still lacking all the modding efforts that SH3 recieved.