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I was talking about this convo, about a serious political debate instead of stupid words. Now you are instead of arguing a succinct point trying to make my beliefs again look stupid by marginalizing their scope. The fact is you sound like a fascist. Life is War! Saying that human nature is to try to destroy one another actually is rather paradoxical. Human beings above all else seek tosurvive. That is something inside that has existed since life began on earth. So to say that pointless wars for nothing are part of human nature is the result of a lazy attitude. Human beings want nothingmore than to be happy. War is hell and not happy. Yet it continues to happen because we believe it is necessary. Hitler believed it necessary to expand into Russia in order to make room for germany to grow. The Kaiser wanted to seize colonial assets held by the rival Empires of Europe. The Roman Empire just wanted everything. The thing is that we have believed that war was the only way to achieve peace. That to take something by force for ourselves was the way to assure our children would have what they needed. It stopped being about territory exclusively once a balance of power was achieved. Now we only seek to destroy what other have so that theymay not use their wealth to destroy our wealth.

The thing is that war wont ever end except when we finally destroy ourselves if we continue this way. No Im sure that the human race will survive any catastrophic outcome. We are resilient enough. The thing that we risk losing is what we have built for generations. our societies. War is a contradiction to democracy. War involves hierarchy, submission, and the annihilation of human rights. War is exactly what we have sought for so long to prevent and ironically we continue to believe that one final war will create the lasting peace. The Pax Romana, the Pax Britannica, and now the Pax Americana. Yet through all of those great empires there was constant fighting. Today there is fighting. War does not make peace. The destruction of human life and civilization does not end animosity between peoples.

Our societies today still condone war. I can't answer what we need to do to make the utopian society. I don't believe any of us can. Theorizing about the end product is a fantasy. In fact what right do we have to declare what the world of our children must be like? If we truly believe in democracy and human rights then we cannot dictate the framework of society for our children. That is their job. They must make the decisions for their time. we must build towards their tommorow. One day I hope something resembling a socialist society exists where no one need suffer unjustly. But that isn't going to happen in my lifetime. All i can do is help topropel society towards that goal at small little intervals. So where do we begin? Well find out what doesn't work and stop doing it. Try and end the human behavior which compounds the inequities of human existance. Once we stop imposing scarcity, death, bondage, or any other form of human suffering on others through both direct and indirect action we have taken a step towards a better world. No utopias here. Just baby steps that I hope give my children a better chance at getting us to the world where we're all living equitable fulfilling lives.

Quote:

Originally Posted by P_Funk

War is exactly what we have sought for so long to prevent and ironically we continue to believe that one final war will create the lasting peace. The Pax Romana, the Pax Britannica, and now the Pax Americana. Yet through all of those great empires there was constant fighting. Today there is fighting. War does not make peace. The destruction of human life and civilization does not end animosity between peoples.

Reminds me of a couple notable quotes: "It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell." -- William T. Sherman

"I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we're really talking about peace." -- G.W. Bush June 18, 2002

Meanwhile today in 2006, one look at Google World News gives a good idea of how this "War is Peace" policy is playing out in the ME, some highlights:

Rice: Cease-fire at this time pointless

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...279485,00.html

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US Secretary of State rules out quick cease-fire as ‘false promise,’ says ‘Syria knows what it needs to do, Hizbullah is the source of the problem.’ Israeli ambassador to US: This is a war not of our choosing
Associated Press

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, heading for a weekend trip to the troubled Middle East, said Friday she would work with allies in the region to help create conditions for "stability and lasting peace."

She ruled out a quick cease-fire as a "false promise" and defended her decision not to talk to officials from Hizbullah or Syria.

"Syria knows what it needs to do and Hizbullah is the source of the problem," Rice said at the State Department as she outlined US hopes for a diplomatic solution to the current crisis

Israel sows seeds of hatred

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...l=968350116795

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U.S. President George Bush has repeatedly claimed that Israel has a "right" to defend itself.

And Israel has repeatedly claimed that Iran is an accomplice in this war against it.

Both claims, from those of us living the Israeli "defence" in Lebanon, are left to wonder where the moral compass of the world has gone and whether justice will ever prevail.

What is the definition of defence and what are its acceptable limits?

Hezbollah seized two Israeli soldiers along the border with Lebanon to force an exchange for Lebanese prisoners that Israel has held without due process. One of them, Samir Quntar, has been held for 27 years.

Hezbollah's attack may not have been justified, but it has learned through past experience that Israel pays no heed to United Nations resolutions and international law and only responds to force. For this, Israel is pounding all of Lebanon to a pulp.

Its U.S.-made F-16s and bombs crash down on the fragile cities below, demolishing homes, lives, a country that has tried to get back onto its unstable feet after an uncivil civil war that had turned a little paradise into a little forgotten hell.

Israel claims that Iranian hands are all over the bombs and training of Hezbollah and its arms.

The hypocrisy is not lost on any Arab, because we all know, especially those of us at the receiving end, that U.S. hands are all over Israeli bombs and ammunitions and war machines.

India ready to 'prove' Pakistan’s 11/7 links

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1750120,0008.htm

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India is not buying Pakistan’s protestations of innocence about knowledge of terrorist elements on its soil, and professed itself “disappointed” with Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf’s need for “proof” to act against terror infrastructure that is “intact” in Pakistan and PoK.

Senior officials said the Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT), responsible for over 80 per cent of terrorist acts against India, was “a creature of the ISI”, which in turn is a “part of the Pakistan establishment.” To suggest that the Pakistan government is unaware of or “cannot control this” is “specious,” a senior official said.

Detailed evidence against terrorists involved in acts of terror against India, including Dawood Ibrahim, have been provided to Islamabad, but there has been no action or even co-operation, officials said.

“What proof was there against those involved in the 9/11, beyond sketchy connections,” an official asked. “See how soon that was acted upon,” he said. But Pakistan and some key interlocutors, like the US, would be provided “proof” of Pakistan’s links with the July 11 Mumbai serial blasts.

Turks Cite Israel's Lebanon War As Precedent Against Kurds

http://www.nysun.com/pf.php?id=36425

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ISTANBUL, Turkey — Turkey said yesterday that Israel's action in Lebanon to stop Hezbollah attacks meant it should be allowed to take similar steps against Kurdish guerrillas operating from northern Iraq against its forces.

Despite strong opposition from America, its military is now drawing up plans for either an air or ground assault. "Whatever step needs to be taken will be taken," the Turkish prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, said.

Fifteen Turkish soldiers, police, and security guards have been killed in the southeast of the country in the last week in clashes with fighters from the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK).

It has long been a concern in Turkey that the growth of Kurdish nationalism in northern Iraq, where the country's instability has permitted a Kurdish semiautonomous state to assume near independence, would inflame Kurdish radicals inside Turkey's borders.

Already this year has seen at least 87 PKK rebels and 51 members of the Turkish security forces killed. A similar rise in attacks by Kurdish armed groups targeting Iran's Kurdish regions resulted in Iranian troops crossing the border earlier this year to wipe out guerrilla bases in northern Iraq.

Bush admits Iraq, Afghan doubts

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...-23109,00.html

Quote:

US President George W. Bush acknowledged Friday that some Iraqis and Afghans are "wondering whether the future is bright for them" but vowed victory in both war-torn countries.

Bush's remarks came as he met with US military personnel newly returned from Iraq and Afghanistan and assured them: "I want our troops to understand that not only does the country support them, but we'll win."

Reuters: Developments in Iraq on July 21

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/MOU127418.htm

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July 21 (Reuters) - The following are security and other developments in Iraq on Friday as of 2030 GMT.

Asterisk denotes a new or updated item.

MAHMUDIYA - Three policemen and three Iraqi soldiers were killed when clashes with gunmen erupted in the town of Mahmudiya, about 30 km (20 miles) south of Baghdad, an Interior Ministry source and the U.S. military said. Five "terrorists" were killed, 13 wounded and 47 detained, the U.S. military said. U.S. helicopters fired rockets and 21 weapons were seized.

*NEAR FALLUJA - A suicide bomber in a car killed six policemen and wounded 13 others near the former rebel stronghold of Falluja 50 km (32 miles) west of Baghdad, said police official Saad Farhan.

MUQDADIYA - The bodies of five people who were kidnapped were found in Muqdadiya, 90 km (50 miles) northeast of Baghdad police said.

MUQDADIYA - A police officer and a civilian were shot dead in separate attacks in Muqdadiya, police said.

ANBAR PROVINCE - A U.S. Marine was killed due to enemy action in Iraq's Al Anbar Province today.

BAQUBA - U.S. troops killed two suspected insurgents as well as two women and a child and wounded 23 people, including women and children, and detained four suspects in a raid to hunt members of al Qaeda northwest of Baquba, 65 km (40 miles) north of Baghdad, the U.S. military said. Police and medical sources said that six civilians were killed, including two women and a child, when the U.S. forces bombed three houses in the area.

NEAR NUMANIYA - Two Salvadoran and four Polish soldiers and an Iraqi translator were wounded when their convoy was attacked near Numaniya, 120 km (70 miles) south of Baghdad, the Polish defence ministry said. It was not clear how the convoy was attacked.

BAGHDAD - A roadside bomb targeting a Sunni mosque in the eastern New Baghdad district of the capital exploded, killing one civilian and wounding two others, police said.

MOSUL - A policeman was gunned down in the centre of Mosul, 390 km (240 miles) north of Baghdad, a hospital source said.

NEAR FALLUJA - The bodies of three Iraqi soldiers in uniform with gunshot wounds, bearing signs of torture, were found in a deserted area about 20 km north of Falluja, which is 50 km (32 miles) west of Baghdad, police said.

KIRKUK - The body of an unidentified headless man was found in the southern part of Kirkuk, 250 km (150 miles) north of Baghdad, police said.

KHALIS - A roadside bomb targeting a Sunni mosque exploded in the town of Khalis, 80 km (60 miles) northeast of Baghdad, killing one worshiper and wounding two, police said.

BASRA - Two "significant" suspects wanted for killings, kidnappings and guerrilla attacks were seized by British forces in separate overnight raids in Basra, 550 km (340 miles) southeast of Baghdad, a military spokesman said.

Repeat after me: Freedom is on the mach.

P_Funk,
Again you have attacked me personally. Eveyone knows calling someone facist is derogatory.

Quote:

Now you are instead of arguing a succinct point trying to make my beliefs again look stupid by marginalizing their scope. The fact is you sound like a fascist.

I am not trying to make you look stupid or marginalize your beliefs. I think my question was a very simple one; . Eventually you will run out of rich folk and corporations to fund the socialist
Quote:

ideals. What then? Darwinism rises, survival of the fitest? The bomb is not going away, neither are swords, nor firearms, nor human nature.

Certainly you have an idea as to how to cope with the end result.

Again you have dodged my response and asked a question that I've already answered. You're asking me to give you the answer to human suffering! I thought I just explained what to do with "the bomb". And what do you mean when you say that corporations and rich fund socialism? Ithoughti just explained what we should do. No absolutes and no utopian declarations. Baby steps.

And I didn't call you a fascist. I said you "sound" like a fascist. There is a difference there. I was making the point that you say that apparently war is never going to go away, you say it's "human nature". Well Hitler and Moussolini said that life is war and that war is human nature and that it is inextricable from human existance. Well as I recall the Americans along with the rest of the world fought against that belief. So if we fought against just that idea and now you are touting it as a reason that I'm just some naiive pinko then I have every right to point that out. Don;t sonfuse me,I;m not calling you a fascist. That is a slur. I am saying that your rhetoric is reminiscant of the Fascisti of Italy and Germany so many years ago.

You have deflected my argument again. I told you what my beliefs tell me to do. I can't map out the development of my ideological views as they practically apply. As with anything human it will change based on the time and the circumstances. Toplan for a future I'll never see is naiive. All I can do is open the door to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by waste gate

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I'm not about to flame you but I will say... you sound really angry about something. Did someone here say something to trigger this?

No, No, No, Neal. I've just recently started checking the general discussion board and noticed a one sided, anti- U.S./Isreal, lean. I have an opinion about the current U.S. administration which I thought I'd share. Nothing more than that. BTW another U.S. gift to the 'free world'.

I was born in 1960, so I remember the cold war and how vulnerable Europe has been in the past. They are no less vulnerable now. Yet, the EU folks often try to degrade the only power on the face of this earth that can help them when the s**t hits the fan. Seems only Britain remembers. Thank you Tony Blair.

Anywho, thanks for asking and sorry about the screed.

waste gate

Ok, thanks, I figured there was a reason for the post. If it means anything to ya, I'm a solid Red-Stater, voted for Bush both times. But this is an international forum, America, Britain, and parts of Canada are democracies so there will be a lot of different viewpoints. I speak my piece but I really am not trying to convert :) (unless the subject is software piracy or free market econonics vs socialism, then I tend to lose my head :88) ).

cheers
Neal

Yep voted for Bush both times but Clinton both times too...back when I did inhale :)...I hear ya Waste Gate there is no shame in taking a stand right or wrong you have to take a stand and Bush did that...Right or wrong and, I think right going over to where the enemy lay and kicking his butt into the caves.

Better him in the caves then me having to live there because he is trying to kill my infidel family with bombs, or poison or sticks or stones....I personally don't mind paying higher taxes or higher gas prices if Osama and the likes of people like him feel the "Heat" from those who Stand and make him live like a worm.

...Go Israel !

Kick some terrorist butts!

Waves the flag!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman

Wow. I don't know what to say. You'llpay high taxes so that Bush can monopolize all the oil in Iraq? If you had any understanding of history you'd know the only reason Osama wants to kill Americans is because the West spent the last 100 sum years killing people all across the middle east. Iraq isn't gonna end terrorism because terrorism is just a means to an end. Terrorism is just like guerilla warfare. So long as you invade and bomb other countries you convert more young people to radical causes because they feel powerless and want a way to seek revenge. And why not instead of waste american wealth on a bomb invest it in actually helping people inside your country live better? Because when a bomb explodes the wealth put into that bomb is lost forever. Spend it on, oh I dunno, universal health care and you save people's lives and make it easier to live. But no, killing is better. Today we're breeding the next generation of terrorists. That will justify an ever larger military budget forcing taxes higher or the deficit higher, whichever, and eventually lead to the collapse of the American economic empire.

And whats with this "take a stand right or wrong" crap? Is it better to be consistently wrong than humble and open minded? for a guy who keeps talking about god and christian morality he sure doesn't seem to embody some of the more basic principles like charity, tolerance, humility.

Don't confuse my clairity of thought with your own perceptions...I call it like I see it. I don't stay up at night worrying about things I have no control over but I understand the way the Muslim the Jew the Christian and the Heathen thinks.

Christ came not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance...I'm a sinner.Cast all the stones you want I consider it an honor.

19 yrs old Eh?... P Funk? Well you don't have to be old to be wise.

(goes to get more pocorn and soda)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman

So there is no argument here. All I have is your blind faith in whatever you believe in to confront. I know I can't defeat it. But I have typed my fingers numb and all I've been getting is more demands that I justify my ideas. So far I haven't gotten anyone's argument for their conflicting ideas. I attempt to justify my argument and I'm getting is some devout flag waving.

And it's interetsing that you looked at my profile. 19 eh? Is that your way of writing off my point?

Just talk to me like a rational person. Don't bother to contradict me if you;re not going to actually justify it.

Uhm Neal...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

But this is an international forum, America, Britain, and parts of Canada are democracies

Did I fall asleep and miss out on a revolution here somewhere? :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by scandium

Uhm Neal...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

But this is an international forum, America, Britain, and parts of Canada are democracies

Did I fall asleep and miss out on a revolution here somewhere? :D

I just saw that. Wow. Well some parts of my country and dysfunctionally democratic but still democratic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by P_Funk

Quote:

Originally Posted by scandium

Uhm Neal...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

But this is an international forum, America, Britain, and parts of Canada are democracies

Did I fall asleep and miss out on a revolution here somewhere? :D

I just saw that. Wow. Well some parts of my country and dysfunctionally democratic but still democratic.

I think he meant to type "parts of Europe" but my jaw dropped when I read it all the same, so I couldn't resist posting it. :lol:

:) Little friendly joke, like when Bush said Canada was our favorite neighbor to the North :88) Canada is every bit as democratic as, say,.. California ;)

It's pronounced "Kommiefornia." (Kah-me-forn-ya).