Excellent work guys :up:

I hesitate to report that I have found a potentialy big bug with our developing method... I discovered, while traveling through a somewhat strong storm, that the helmsmen don't do squat to maintain course heading. After you order something like "new course 45 degrees" the virtual sailors in your sub just make sure that your sub initialy points in that direction and then they let it go for itself without any course corrections at all (unless you set waypoints, but that would defeat the whole purpouse as already mentioned previously in this thread).

I was perfectly willing to accept problems with drift (that was part of the challenge we were looking for), but not problems with the boat being deflected off it's bearing by strong seas and not have the helmsman compensate by turning the boat back towards the intended heading... The stupid sailors behave as if they didn't have a compass on board :nope: . Under rough seas, in relatively short periods of time (about 4hours game time) I've had my boat change it's heading by about 15 degrees :huh:. So that means that you have to keep a very close eye on your compass heading because your crew sure won't :down:

No, Leeway, is not a bug, Dantenoc. It's a known variable-constant(wx, tides, current) confronting navigators daily, the reality I spoke of earlier. This, in effect, means that the waypoint tool as far as this game is concerned--training wheels.

I'm not sure I'm reading Dantenoc's post correctly, but it sounds like the actual compass heading is changing, and not just that the boat is winding up off course. To me, it would be one thing if the compass stayed set to 45 degrees but the boat wound up 15 degrees off course (that would be "drift" in my view), but it would be something entirely different if the compass heading actually changes from 45 to 60 degrees (which is what it sounds like Dantenoc is saying is happening) - that would sound like "crew incompetence" to me.

I had one stretch the other night where I wound up several degrees off course, further off than I expected to be or had been previously, but I didn't notice anything about the compass setting - I'll have to pay more attention next time and see if anything is going on with the compass heading.

:) I've been over this ground many times.

The sim compass always shows where your boat is heading. The simple test while in free-lance is to up the tc to x1024 and while on a particular course during foul wx...watch the compass drift right/left--this is indicating leeway--whatever the cause. As mentioned earlier, navigators relied on the ETMAL (noon to noon) position to determine COG, SOG, & CMG, SMG.
course over ground
speed over ground
course made good
speed made good

When landfall is made, one can fully realize and appreciate the joy and celebration due to the sailor, home from the sea.

There is nothing precise with real navigation due to all the variables involved, until the navigator can apply with mathematical certainty the discipline of celestial navigation to fix his position on the planet.

Leeway is omnipresent in both ocean and air. Nothing that flies or floats can avoid it. All we can ever hope to do is compensate for it. Many have experienced the phenomenon while crossing a bridge over a windy pass on a motorcycle, or hiking upon a windy trail. Navigating at sea or in the air presents unusual problems as there are no trees or hills to duck behind.

The navigator can plan a course from A to B, using D=SxT, but after leeway (wx, current, tides) take hold, he won't know how much drift or set have taken place until the time has passed, whereupon, he can compute the amount using vectors or maneuvoring board. Course A to B is always subject to change, the navigator can only guess his destination and put his ESTIMATED position on the chart...until it is confirmed or rejected via celestial fix.

Example of compensation:

own course 300T
we've determined 10° east drift
compensate course to 290T

Confirmation: Time runs out...was landfall made?

Gentlemen who navigate for a living indicate a course A to B in short segments, each segment was from noon to noon. They would draw a COG from one noon to the next noon, but it was only an estimate. Through celestial they would then fix their location and they could easily see the drift or set between the estimate and true fix. They would then draw their next COG segment from the fix toward their destination...this process is repeated day after day after day until port was reached.

Here's a typical nav worksheet mid-ocean showing courses adjusted by fixes:

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/7494/afixgn5.th.jpg

I understand all the navigational theory, though I appreciate your explanation which is very clear and helpful. But I believe what Dantenoc was talking about was changes in the actual course indicated on the compass wheel. I just ran a brief test and while sailing for a couple of days at high T/C through variable winds (6 to 12 m/s) I did notice a very slight "trembling" of the compass heading indicator (which I would interpret as the boat being pushed off course occasionally and the helmsman correcting for it from time to time), but I also noticed that the compass seemed to have moved so that it was indicating a course of about 266 degrees instead of the 270 degrees I had "ordered" at the start. And, sure enough, when I plotted my position at the end of the run and compared it to my starting position, I was off by 4 degrees to the south of where 270 would have put me.

Now certainly, a variance of 4 degrees over that length of time (which amounted to about 30Km or so) seems reasonable in terms of drift/navigational error, and maybe the only way for the game to make this "error" occur is to actually change the compass indicator by the 4 degrees of the error. I guess it would just seem more realistic/normal if the compass heading would say 270 the entire time but you would still wind up being off course a few degrees like I was.

All in all, not any real problem at just a few degrees, though if I was seeing 15 degree variances it would certainly look odd to see the compass set to 255 when I had ordered 270. Also, seeing the compass deflected that way tends to telegraph the direction and extent of the navigational error, which we're trying to hide by suppressing the image of our sub on the map in the first place.

Roger that, Panthercules. I apologize if I seemed condescending or over informative with my explanations; but, on a forum as this, one never knows if what one writes could perhaps become the inspiration or spark of inventiveness in the casual reader. Maybe it could spawn interest.

I've witnessed the deck watch asleep at the switch too. Usually, during foul wx when I'm trying to outflank a convoy or target...especially when seas are Beaufort 7 or 8 (15 m/ps) at higher TC. It requires constant vigilence at the helm to make rendezvous with target(s) using this method.

No offense taken or apology necessary - I found your explanations clear and helpful, and this whole thread has indeed inspired me to play around with some (for me) hitherto unexplored areas of gameplay, which is very cool. I was just trying to point out that this particular point about the compass heading was (at least for me, if not for Dantenoc - he'll have to speak for himself on this one) not about the navigational theory, but just the way the game's compass indicator works in these situations. I suspect it can't be changed, but people are figuring out so much already maybe they could figure out how to make the compass stay "as ordered" but let the boat drift anyway - just a thought :)

Well this thread has already cought my attention and I believe I wont be the last one.

I've been experimenting this method also for a couple of hours and I'm actually really enjoying this navigating.
Before you guys brought this up I used to plot my course by myself once ina while, but also did use the waypoint system when I the captain were too busy to plot manually.

For me this game is a simulation and I like to keep things as realistic as possible, but I do like to use my Officers every now and then to do the job for me.

Okay back to the point. I've had pretty good results with manual plotting my course and position. Usually I end up five kilometers over the point where I think I should be. :damn:
I really think that my calculations are correct, but it might be the speed changes. I patrol at 7 knots speed decks awash just west of Britain near the coast.
Also I find that compass course change a bit annoying too.


Thanks guys for showing me the path :rock:

Well Done, Johnny Blaze!

You can get sweaty palms when heading back to port in fog or a storm...trying to make landfall...those harbor lighthouses are a Godsend.

Thank God it's been sunny and calm for the whole patrol (7 days).
Well actually I've been waiting for the storm to come to really test my navigating skills.

Well, it's official. If your sailing in rough seas, the waves can actualy push the nose of your sub and make turn into a different compass heading. After fooling around with the sub for a while using time compression, I have been able to observe a change in course of up to 50 degrees in about 10 hours.

Guess that means you can't trust your helmsman to maintin compass heading, so we'll have to keep a close eye on that when time compressing. :shifty:

I realize that you can take celestial readings at almost any time with the right equipment, but what would be realistic to do? One reading at the crack of dawn and another at sunset?

In real life, three times per day:
dawn
noon
evening

that is, wx and enemy activitiy permitting.

The problem is that in real life the helmsman steers by the compass; that is he is constantly correcting to keep the ship on the same compass heading.

The boat will almost certainly drift from its assigned course, which is why sightings have to be taken, but it will NOT change headings. For the game to do this is very wrong.

Yeah - seems that way to me too - I like the fact that you actually drift off course, but I wish the compass heading indicator would stay put on the heading ordered - I'm sure that the helmsman wouldn't sit there and let the compass indicator drift very far off 270 before he corrected to get it back on 270 (and if he didn't, I could always shoot him and replace him with someone who would keep us on the ordered heading) - he certainly wouldn't let it slide 15-50 degrees off the ordered course like we seem to be seeing here.

Too bad the game didn't get that part quite right. As long as we know what's happening though, I suppose we can learn to just ignore the compass indicator setting during these stretches of our voyage (maybe click it over to the rudder indicator so we can't see the compass moving off target) and just focus on elapsed time so we won't be tipped off as to how far off course (or in which direction) we've drifted.

I'll give that a try if I ever shake these escorts and get back to the surface again :)

Well, no... you can't ignore the helmsman's incompetence, you have to watch him very closely and not let him steer of course.

Drift is simulated independently of the direction at which your sub's nose is pointing... at least I've seen my boat travel in a side step fashion by as much as 3 or 4 degreee when I could still see the sub on the navmap on very high zoom (before making it invisible)... so always pointing in the right direction will still give us drift (which is good)

So, that now brings us to a different subject: what would be the best mod to have to allow us a BIG compass on the screen (the stock one is so small that it's hard to read).

P.S.: I noticed in Grey Wolves that the wall mounted compasses (command room and hydrophone station) don't work correctly... the outer dial showing your heading in 10's works ok, but the inner dial that shows the las digit in your degree heading seems frozen (at least in my game) to the "1" position.

...the UNITS dial has never worked since day one. IIRC it was modded before GW or NYGM, it was made to emulate pictures of real compasses in uboats. I remember folks on the forum asking what it was for. At any rate it was part of the gyro-compass/repeater system...not the magnetic.

'Six-Dials Simfeeling mod' is the best as far as I'm concerned. Nothing on the screen at all most of the time, which makes it easier to make screenshots, and everything is a slideout. It takes a little work to install it, but the results are...well, see for yourself:
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=48292

Well how's the navigating going on guys?

I hope you guys havent given up allready? :hmm:

I'm still practicing for that storm to come, cuz it's been all :sunny:.

well... it's hard to say. I've pretty much gotten used to the idea of not seeing my boat when zoomed in, and I've learned how to plot my own position as well as the enemy's position simultaniously. So that part is cool. As a matter of fact, now that I've gotten the hang of it, I think it's better and now makes the original feel kinda gamey (having a magical map that updates your position in real time with no margin of error).

Also, ploting intercept courses when the enemy's position and general heading is reported to you, but when you don't exactly where you are is kinda fun also, and realy not very dificult to do.

However, the helmsman's incompetence is quite frustrating, since you have to keep a close eye on him and continuously drop from TC in order to correct him. This problem is greatly exagerated in bad weather, and it really demands a lot of time from you if you want to play this way (you can't really TC to high or for too long) I wish there was a "repeat last order button" so that I could continously yell at him "Keep course 218!!! Keep course 218!!! Keep course 218!!!" without having to constatly drop from TC in order to adjust the boat's heading.