Which answers none of the questions that I posed to you, nor has this ever been cited as a reason for the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

It seems, another one.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/5039714.stm

given the that the terrorists /insurgency members commit suicide during attacks on the military/police/civilians all too frequently etc to start off with--making neutrals/friendlys in the conflict zones feel like they're liable to get killed no matter what happens isn't going to discourage them from taking similar approachs to the situation--there's such a thing as taking this "we're all hard-nuts and we're gonna take you out" stuff too far..no one can argue with the feeling of the troops who took retribution in this manner for the killing of their friends--
but if highly trained, highly disciplined, profesional troops, with a chain of command to answer too, have issues with maintaining discipline when faced with the loss of a close friend --why on earth do we expect civilians with no such training ,discipline or chain of command to behave as if it's perfectly acceptable for their loved one's, family members , even children to get killed----it's not rocket science

I suppose I should apologise for the lateness in throwing in my 2 cents, but was unable to do so due to internet problems. The following post was supposed to have been put up directly after Scandiums 3rd post on the first page:

As much as I hate beating a dead-horse, the tactics the terrorists are using is a hop-skip-and a jump away from what is was in Vietnam.

There is no uniform to put on the enemy, only vague nationalities, and even less clarified tribal affiliations. Not more than a few weeks ago, a woman blew herself up on a checkpoint. And it is suspected that some in the newly formed Iraqi military are moonlighting as the very people these troopers are fighting. Now under the Geneva Convention, nations at war are required to provide basic treatment to POWs' (food, water, shelter, clothing, and medical care). The nations at war are also required to identify their troops by a uniform. The people these men are fighting have no uniform, and have little in the way of humane treatment of POWs'.

To put one's eyes in their boots, think of it this way: You're in the military. You have no rights except what the military has given you. You are required to follow a rigid code of conduct and behavior that will be punished in brutal measures if broken.

So you're ordered to go out on patrol every day with a little rest every once in awhile to help relieve the stress. You expect your tour to end in about 18 months (it's what you signed up for right?). But it doesn't. You forgot to read the small print buried somewhere in that document you signed when you joined saying the military can keep you in for as long as they like if they really needed you.

You're upset. You wanted to go home and have the first cold beer in almost 2 years. Maybe next year, you think to yourself, we'll have this place locked down tighter than an Alabama tick. Another year passes, then you're kept in for another tour......and you're starting to think you'll never leave this place alive. A buddy dies from another unit. Then another time your humvee is hit with a bomb, but you got away unhurt, but poor johnny lost his face in the blast. You hear reports of terrorists using women and young men to carry out suicide bombings. When you're manning the checkpoint, you're sanity is bordering on the paranoia:" Is that pregnant woman really a bomber?" "Is that kid in the carriage sitting on a IED with my name on it?" "Is that guy over there gonna head into that building, and then come out with a rifle and put a bullet through my skull?"

The spiraling begins. You question yourself why you're supposed to obey the rules when the enemy obviously doesn't? "They hide in with civilians before and after they attack, but we can't find them all the time, and it's often too late to stop them beforehand." "Why should we treat 'em nice if we capture one? Hell, they'd kill me by rubbing a rusty knife against my neck until it pops off if they caught me!!"

You think about getting a medical discharge, but you don't want a bad mark that would stick to your record for life. You're stuck, and there's no way out. Everybody's against you, but you don't know who "everybody" is until they throw some lead your way. Another buddy dies.

The paranoia sets in. There's no way out. I don't wanna die. I wanna get the hell outta here! You're ordered to go onto another patrol. Afraid you'll be sent to prison if you refuse, you go without protest. Sitting inside the Humvee your mind races with confusion, desperation, and fear. You feel the shockwave before the sound reaches you, the bottom half of the turret gunner flops on the floor of the humvee in front of you, spilling guts and blood on the floor. You're frozen in space, and you hear the sound of the bomb that killed him. You snap.
================================================== ==========

Were the actions excusable? No. They were not. Was this preventable? Absolutely. So who f*cked up? Because I'm seeing that the sh*t rolls both downhill AND uphill. I can see exactly how everything went to hell for this guy. But he should've been seeing a psychiatrist for acute stress long before this happened.

One must also take into account that these soldiers must act honorably, in an unhonorable war. That in itself, is a high commendation to their character and determination while under pressure.

Edited for text color - NS

Great post.

PD

Yahoshua points at the human reality of a soldier, like I myself did, but not as detailed. I agree, but one also needs to look beyond that. This siutation does not come as a surprise. Historians and theorists have described exactly this situation before the war. the leaders had been told. They could have red it in reports and books. Listen to it in speeches and interviews. I received quite some bashing back then when I also said that it necessarily, unevitably must come to a situation like we now have in Iraq. Why is it that Americans did not believe? Drunk of their own heroified self-image? History taught so many examples before. Or Afghanistan, several times russian commanders, on official as well as private levels, have offered to share their experiences with the americans - and got slammed a door in their face. "Too kind of you, but we know it better." Tzz. Tell you what - in ten years, at the latest, Afghanistan will be again where it was before 2001. Take me by my word.

Again, the introducing article that I quoted here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=93733

I have just two words for this: war crimes

:down:

Absolutely. But crimes usually have causes. One needs to understand these causes in order to prevent future crimes.

I don't disagree with any of this. There are reasons why this happened, and my own feeling is that I can sympathize with their circumstances leading up to it but without excusing their actions. Meanwhile there is undoubtedly blame that goes higher up for putting these people into this pressure cooker and to what end? It has to have a definite impact upon at least some of the people there when they are told they're being sent there to disarm Iraq of WMDs that are never found yet they still have to be there; that they are being sent there because Iraq is being connected to 9/11 only there turns out to be no credible basis for this connection and they still have to be there; and that they are being sent to liberate these people from their brutal dictator, only to find the response, when that's done, is a brutal insurgency... and yet they still have to be there. These may be inconvient facts for people here who continue to support this fiasco, but I'd imagine at least some of the people who have to fight over there must think about these things now and then. And then it is topped off by repeated tours and Stop Loss measures.

Personally I dont give a damn whether or not there were WMDs' there to begin with, Saddam should've been taken down the first time around.

But other than that I agree with everything else you've said.

And (I hope I'm not beating a dead-horse here) what's worse about this situation is that we (the U.S.) are stuck there in Iraq until they can stand on their own feet again. If we leave and Iraq collapses and becomes another terrorist haven, we've failed the purpose of having stayed longer than it was needed to destroy the former gov't. And a retreat at this point would completely destroy the morale of our troops rather than bloodying it through the prolonged stay we have now gotten stuck in.

In my opinion this is where the draft of prison inmates into Penal Batallions sounds really good to me. One step out of line and it's a bullet through the skull. Opens up room in the prisons, gets rid of any scumbags that society doesn't want, and will sure as hell straighten them out (or they can be kept in indefinitely if they dont).

Excused?....Yes

He should be excused from further service to go to the nearest hospital, mental institution or jail...whichever is decided upon by his superiors.

Only on Earth...what a question.

That's as dumb as asking should I do good or evil?...it's all a matter of perpesctive and choice.

But I did vote for the Nazi's...they are behind it all .

If? Is. The war is lost, since longer. Get your people out of there. Nothing is left that could be acchieved. They are left in harm's way all for nothing, to protect the image of election-interested candidates who don't give a dime about their life or death, health or woundings, mental peace or inner destruction. Bush does not want to admit that he made terrible mistakes, and that is why the troops are still there. Mission Impossible.

Election interested candidates? Which ones would those be?

Eating your own species? There are serious health risks involved. :know:

If the Iraqi gov't can stand on their opwn feet, perform insurgency ops and otherwise get their parliament off their ass and running the country. We win.

Destroying the insurgency is not our problem at the moment, it is getting the Iraqi gov't set up so they can replace us. And I seriously doubt that Iraq will be absolutely devoid of any U.S. presence. We're still in Germany and Japan.

Right. My vote is "no."

On a side note to this discussion I was up at 1am here in the UK Wednesday morning and watched on tv The Factor (Fox News Channel), with its host Bill O'Reilly. One of the main segments was on the alleged Haditha massacre and O'Reilly had as guest Ret. Gen. Wesley Clarke. O'Reillys angle for this story is in trying to divert attention and play down this alleged incident in Iraq. In doing so he makes what I thought was a collossal gaff. In it he claimed that American GI's massacred German SS soldiers at Malmedy. I kid you not that is what he said. Now I've learned that this is actually the second time he has made such a ridiculous claim. View for yourself here the transcipt and more importantly the video from the segment from Tuesday which also feaures the first time he make the same false accusation:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200606030002

You will also find that the Fox News transcipt does not reflect what Bill O'Reilly actually said. This is an absolute disgrace and O'Reilly should make a public apology. :nope: :nope:

O'Reilly has been on my "Ignore" list for several years. He's making noise to improve his ratings.