Found it!!!!

http://www.untrue-news.com/images/ir...bullwinkle.jpg

Use our democracy against our democracy?

Ok. Fine.

We'll use your religion against your religion.

@Skybird

Firstly, don't make (hasty) assumptions about me taking part in 'the Humanistic Championship Rally' and having a biased view towards Islam. I'm always attempting to view something, especially within social sciences, from as many viewpoints as possibility. The anti-Islam viewpoint was, as far as I could see it, over-represented, therefore I was attacking your arguements, thus hopingly making you and other readers of this thread view the case from a different point of view, and not be blended by the rhetoric of someone you agree with. (As, I might add, the German people in the 30's were.) I do not actually expect you to change your point of view, but maybe I'll get someone to think, you have obviously done that a lot already and found your conclusions. That doesn't mean they're correct, however.


I am not defending the flag-burning, the threats and the claims that the governments should intervene. I am defending those muslims that are indifferent to the cartoons (yes, they exist,) and those that are displeased, but not violent.

As for your claim about a the medieval nature of caring about blasphemy, there is only 27 years ago Monty Python's Life of Brian was banned in Ireland, Italy, Norway and several areas within Great Britain. Middle Ages are apparently closer than we think.

(Of course, that was less violent protests, but still.)

I personally have met what I would call tolerant muslims, and people whose testimony I'm inclined to believe, have friends that they would call tolerant muslims. Assuming that there exists tolerant muslims, how do you defend your statement that there is no tolerant Islam?

"Not in a thousand year it will change." is a bit of an overstatement, and a rhetoric exaggeration. A thousand years ago, Norway was christened by sword. Much like the Arab world in the 8th to 12th centuries. Three hundred years ago, women were burned in the name of Christ because they knew how to cure diseases and held other bits of useful knowledge. 150 years ago, a large population within America was fighting for their right to treat other humans as property. Sixty-five years ago, Germans were burning Jews, Poles, Gypsies and Homo-sexuals.

A thousand years is a long time.

Islam has not developed and chnaged much in the last thousand years, Type23. It has systemitcally neutralized all attempts to establish tradition sof philosohy, science, theology, law, that were sometijme more, sometimes less different from the interpretation of the orthodoxy. None of these traditions survived to a degree that today they play a significant role in Islam, that could change and influence Islam orthodoxy. Many of the prominent names tgrying to establish these traditions especially in the timeframe of 10th-14th century were killed. the others were silenced by other means prison, making them surrender, etc.) Islam today is very much the same than it was in the 10th century. VERY much the same.

You ask for tolerant Muslims and intolerant Islam, how this comes together. I was asked this repeatedly in recent weeks, and answered it at least two times, maybe more often, also was discussing it via emails with three members of the board. So this time I make it short only: both things you ask come together the same way in which they come together in chriszian relgion as well. In my country, a majority of people declare themselves top be christians. But a majority of these do not act like christians. Sometimes they follow traditions and rites, like going on church at christmas, while not spending any thought on spritual questions for the whole rest of the year, and maybe even not durcing christmas church trip. You can follow a religious teaching for reasons of traditiononly, or you have nothing else to do, or you never questioned the dogma, whatever. This does not mean that you are in correspondence with that relion's inner teachings. The church and Jesus' message I cannot bring together for example. That's why I make a strict differenc ebetween the church - and christian mystic and Jesus teachings. Both are worlds apart. so if someone does accoridng to the dogma of the church, he is not necessarily christian for that reason alone. He is "churchian".

Same with Islam. There may be people who describe themselves as muslims, but sticking to their very own and personal image of what it is about. But their personal representation, and "fanatsy", of what it's about, must not be in correspondence. That way, they believe in WHAT THEY THINK ISLAM is. If these people are convinced of the value of for example western humanistic values, they will try to argue that Islam is about these values. But the scriptures of Islam only partially would reflect that, and for eah quote you find you would also be able to find more quotes that are in contradiction to the first. Becasue Islam is not about such values, and it is about ruling and overcoming other cultural traditions, not about tolerating them eternally and coexist with them. People in the west, wantin g to appear to be peace-loving and humanistic and politically corretc., do not believe this easy. Mostly, because they never took care to build a substantial knowledge about Islam (theology, history, Muhammad, scripture and how they emerged and change in the first three centuries), and are feeded simply wrong information that distort historical facts or content of scriptures.

FULL STOP, BRAKES SLAM IN, MOVEMENT ZERO - Hm, this is getting too long, so I will try something different and leave this one open-ended. you guys think you are asking simple question on one level, but these issues have a complexity of different levels and perspectivesbeeing connected to it that short, brief answers are simply impossible (that's why 20 seconds-news-spots are so miuch bull**** and manipulative for the most). I sent a long letter to someone who was questioning my opinion, too, for comparable reasons like you do. We are very diffrent, or better: strictly opposed in our opinions, but still can manage to respect each other. Nevertheless, major parts of that letter are not any personal at all, but are like one of my usual essays or texts. I will post longer excerpts from that and clean them of any personal references, because 90% of that multi-page letter was an essay in fact, I hope (and think), my mail-partner at that time will not feel treated unfair that way, no personal adresses I will include. Watch out for an according separate thread by me tomorrow. Maybe it will help you to understand my answer to your question better, then.

Edit: DONE, thread is up.

Not a matter of brave, I would have to agree with it first.

I find it fall-down funny, all this talk about some cartoons, but where the hell are they?? Why is it they are not included in the articles? I mean, we gotta know what it is we are talking about.

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/danish005.jpg

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004413.htm

:arrgh!:

http://muttawa.blogspot.com/

If they ever would catch him, he will have all hell to suffer :lol: Muslim Offense Level has been raised to "High" (condition orange) :lol:

Never mind depictions of Westerners and Israeli's in the Arab media-

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-21.htm

Heard some interesting info on the radio last night. Seems the "Council on American Islamic Relations" had a picture on their website soon after Sept 11th; after one clicked the link it asked for donations to "The Holy Land Foundation"- which of course was a front for Hamas.

Yours, Mike

Is this the true face of Islam?

I'm begining to wonder :hmm:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Co....rp420x400.jpg

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/afp/pbz0....rp420x400.jpg

Some minutes ago I received a mail by someone who told me that my past essays and comments on Islam's history reminded him of this:

http://www.patriotist.com/miscarch/cp20011119.htm

I see parallels.

The conflict is coming and US might get a all of EU next to them. Funny thing is that George Bush could be remembered when the history is written, as a the number one defender of western freedom. :D

I was bored one day, and copy/ed n pasted his latest state of the union address in MS Word. Since the start of it was so rhetorical, i was curious about something.

From begining to end, he used the word "freedom", 17 times.

The western world should simply cut off travel in and out of muslim countries, quaranteen them, until they advance out of the middle ages.

We're on the same side in this, differing only in minor details.

But we both know that this is unrealistic, isn't it...

Well we better get it going because theres only 800 million of "us" stretching all over the planet.

In regards to ex-patriot muslims (or any other denomination really) living in the UK who are causing public unrest and being generally offensive, I feel it would be a good idea to take a leaf out of Bahrain's attitude towards that kind of thing. Allow me to ellaborate; when I lived out there, it was well known in the western ex-pat community that if you transgressed the rules or broke the law in some fashion (think along the lines of commiting a crime or agitating the host nations public feeling) you would almost certainly be delivered to your respective embassy with clear instructions that you were to be deported forthwith and would not under any circumstances be welcome back into the country and would face arrest were you to attempt to re-enter the State of Bahrain. If your crime was serious then you were regarded as a foreign national and subject to your counrys law and judiciary, not Bahrains'. I don't know if this still holds true as its been a while since I was there.
I think this attitude coupled with a stiffer spine in some of our politicians would make for a perfectly reasonable solution to those folk who were intent on causing trouble- repatriot them. Tow the line and behave and you can stay for as long as you and your family wish and enjoy what we take for granted in our every day freedoms. Piss off the locals and you can jolly well go back to where you came from, we do not want or need that kind of behaviour here.

Pigs might fly though...

This is an opportunity we cannot waste.

Skybird can't you see it?

We need more Mohammed, everywhere, it's our chance to end the subversion and face what most try to ignore.

We must get all Western nations boycotted, apparently all it takes is ONE newspaper to publish ONE cartoon!!! Our power is superior to Allah! We can change the life of millions of Arabs and Muslims with ONE cartoon! Cartoon by cartoon, the masked pillars of Islam will crumble and the truth will be revealed once and for all.

All it takes is one editor for each nation, any volunteers?

I'm getting sick of hearing about Muslim extremists demanding that we change our laws, culture, and now even the basis for our entire society. And I know this is making me sound like a racist or bigot, but when they are actually crowding our streets chanting for a jihad against all of us for a couple of cartoons or "freedom of speech, go to hell" (which was a slogan on several signs I noticed) I think we really do have reason to worry. They really shouldn't hope for a "clash of civilizations" (as some Muslim's were screaming for one enthusiastically tonight on the news) - if there was a total all-out war between them and the West, I doubt they would stand much chance in the long run. But what concernes me is that Western governments will band over backwards to accomodate them in any way possible - until we are banned from doing anything which they deem to be unholy (meanwhile in their own countries, they will do nothing to accomodate anything we ask from them and will continue to harbour terrorists). They apparently have no fear of our nations now - they were able to roam the streets of France destroying and attacking whatever and whoever they could find (with a low number of arrests and I believe, moderate prison sentences to the handful that were caught). I don't even think we should be allowing huge scores of them to flee to our countries - I believe in multiculturalism and the promotion of divergent cultures but the majority of muslims appear to only call for the subjugation of other cultures and refuse to accept any belief that does not conform perfectly to their own.

Maybe there are a few moderates asking for a more restrained response, but I don't see any. The huge crowds of screaming fanatics calling for the spilling of our blood, the destruction of our civilized societies, and the erasing of every democratic principle which we have worked hard to establish must be drowning them out. :roll:

I just have to get that off my chest - I am really worried about what the future holds for Western countries against such an unruly mob of crazed fanatics. I am not a racist though - this is about extremist religion and the overturning of liberal democracy to me. I hope such a rant does not violate SubSim's policies in any way - if so I will delete it and not post another.

I haven't responded at all -- now that's restrained.