The German government has finally reacted to the events in Hongkong. It has issued a recommendation for all Germans to practice self-censorship. It said that German must expect to get arrested and trialed on grounds of the new "security" laws if they set foot onto Hongkong soil, evcen if their plane is just landing for refueling or passenger swapping- means you have to expect to get pulled out of the plane even if Hongkong is not your destination, but you are just transiting. Germans should practice self-abstain from criticising China.

Way to go, Germany. You have big experience with such servility towards state authoritarianism , so why not falling back to this your historical expertise once again?


Of course Merkel still babbles of special German-Chinese relations . An of course Germna economy sitll is so stupdi to pump huge amounts of money and know-how to China. Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid. We should write off all these lost moneys, withdraw from Chian compeltely, and then focus on using all our influential weight inside the EU to block the Chinese out of Europe. TGhe german China-policy was build on naive illusions from beginning on, and now it is is ruins. Nothing worth to be mentooned, no civilizational progess has been achieved. The country is more dangerous now than ever before. And it must not listen and comply anymore. We gave it what it wanted form us, and now it does not really need us anymore, can get along and even surpass us all by itself. Stupid, stupid, stupid.



When I said in a posting above I better should not travel to Hongkong anymore due to the Chinese probably, like the Americans, monitoring and recording all electronic communication, I was not kidding. At no cost I would do it anymore. We see with German citizens criticising Erdoghan from outside Turkey being arrested at will when travelling to Turkey, how real these kinds of threats are.

Also, why would I want to go to and leave my money in a barbaric country like that? I have no business there, and for tourism, there are more comfortable destinations.

Good insights. I agree that change must come from within; moreover, what leverage can any country - even the US - have when dealing with such a huge nuclear armed power? I had a good Han Chinese friend who told me that, as much as the man in the street there dislikes gov't meddling & corruption, they are still deeply suspicious of US notions of "freedom", "justice" &c. Probably with good reason....look at how atomized and fractious the United States are today. He also said that pro-democracy protesters (like the student demonstrators on the mainland ~ 30 years ago) should not be considered representative of the whole population there.

As Eisenwurst said, I suspect any change will be at their own pace, and from within! Definitely not from US carrier battlegroups.

Some of the Danish Politicians(those who are in opposition) Demands that we take a standpoints against China.

Yesterday Tibet, today Hong Kong and tomorrow Taiwan. It' time to draw a line in the sand one of these politicians said.

It's so easy to say things when a politician is in opposition to the government and don't have to take serious decision, only thing they have to do in the parliament is to vote for or against laws.

Which country with a full mental health politicians will take on China ??

Markus

Change may come from within, but how should this be possible with the rising levels of surveillance and this "point" system?
It is not exactly new to China to have such a régime, i doubt anyone remembers better times. They also try to re-educate by force, something they learned in Korea and Vietnam with this brain-washing methods; they are currently trying this out against the Uigurs.
There has been a heavyweight delivery of human hair from China to Germany; it has been sent back, but some expect it may come from the Uigurs.

The german automotive industry says it needs China as a market, for buying cheap electronics and selling cars.
"We" should not buy anything from China as long as Xi Jinping plays the great leader, not that capitalism will follow that idea.
A definite stance on that matter is needed, and i do not mean a forever debate.

Quite true. That also touches on some of my concerns about "human rights" sloganeering in the United States regarding China. Sure, everyone likes to make fine speeches about how China needs to do X Y Z, but what leverage do outside nations (Denmark, the US, anyone) really have? The whole thing smacks of posturing, and a charade.

Here, aside from a few pro-war, militaristic loons - no US citizens are willing to defend Asian "allies" to the last drop of American blood against China.

With respect to individual Chinese? If my friend and his family are representative, it seems like most Chinese have no illusions about their government being noble & pure ... they are cynical about official pronouncements, and Han supremacist propaganda.

It's just that criticism of China in its sphere of influence tends to produce a "rally round the flag" effect. And comments about how the United States and "free" countries don't always have clean hands themselves (I can't argue with them there).


"Washington currently sent two carriers and six escorts (says a German newspaper) into the south Chinese Sea. Sabre rattling, and symbolic only. "

100% correct. Because the US needs to be seen "to be Doing Something." In its own way, this is like another lecture on Tibet, or being nice to the Falun Gong.

Catfish points at something important.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System

Its perfidity at its best, it makes people censoring themselves, and turns doing so nto a sport. This system is aimed at beign implrmente dnation-wide, and already is very sadvanced. In a documentation about China that was shown earlier this year and where they desc ribed this system ind epth, I got the impression that in the urban areas and big cities especially traditoinally th8inbloing Chiense are very much in favour of it. Certainly the ammount of obedience towards it, is immense already now.

Be compliant, think the correct thoughts, say the right things, do not criticise, even show enthusiasm in government-wanted behaviour rules, and you may buy tickets to travel. Can visit the libary. The gym. Do not applaude during a government parade, get vilified, or behave in a socially not correct manner, and you gets stripped of these rights and "priviliges", you cannot buy tickets for the train, can not travel to meet your family. People go to state offices like to a bank, and at the counter ask for their score standing, and trade score points for priviliges like doing some bank business.

And like in 1984, it is not enough to just act as being ordered, or just dopign something in order to please the master - you must be convinced of it, and you must love to do so. The state and you have to become one.

This is not some dystopic fantasy - it already is in place in parts of Bejing and other locations, and works right now while I type this. The states wants to bring it to all the country, and it works on accieving that. And it will.

Gleichschaltung.

Its mental streamlining like this that aims at emiminating any space in thinking for alternative opinion. The result will be a people that, like the north Koreans, has lost the ability to think of alternatives, or being critical or even just distanced to the or neutral on the government. Before anyone now thinks he must claim that this is too bad as if it could be true, let me remind you that during the cultural revolution they did the same mission already, but by other means thta were quite barbaric, inhumane and murderous, and that currently they hold the Uigures in KZs and force them to either get brainwashed and reeducated to form another identity and delete their own, or to break and die. By definition of the anti-genocide charta, it is genocide, something that the Chinese are seriously engaged in with regard to around 60 minorities, Tibetans being the most famous exmaple. Not that the fame has done anything ever for the Tibetans.

Add to this the military bullyin g and intidmating of all coutnries in the region, and their massive military buildup, the establishing of a Führer cult at the state's top and the growing nationalism, and you shoud see the parrallels to Germany pre-Septembre 1939. Only that today there is not just one but millions of Chamberlains in the West.


P.S. Edit:

In closed psychiatries they sometimes work with this principle, too. Patient get "paid" out toy money if they help in group work, comply with staff orders, take their drugs, behave, do not turn aggressive, are accessible and actrive in group therapy sessions. These tokens they can then barter for TV minutes and programs, access to game boxes and music instruments, and such things. Very effective.

The other psycho-manipulative principle at work here, is nudging, just maxed out to XXXL format. Nudging is a recommended principle in both German Merkel politics (Merkel once revealed she is a fan of it), and EU politics.


The Chinese regime is trying to construct itself a kind of population as it wants to own one. A designer population, so to speak.

Thank you for your input.

I fear due to this Chinese expanding in the South Chinese sea, that we may face a war, a war between USA and China at start then other countries will be dragged into this war.

I hope this will not happen.

Markus

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/ar...dy-declared-it


Highly relevant, I would say, while German stupid polticians still babble of Germany's "special relation" to Bejing. Einstein was right, only human stupdiity seems to be infinite.

It is not really a surprise that a lot of countries now see the relationship to the US as a cold war thanks to all this porcelaine smashed by Trump, but this is indeed something different.

It must have been two or more years now that i wrote about China and Cixin Liu, and that anyone who wants to know what China is really up to should read it.

The sad part is the current situation was arrived at not out of necessity, but out of US political expediency; Trump and the minions needed a bogeyman to make it seem there was some actual imminent threat to be dealt with as a justification for actions serving their political goals and as a sort of rallying point for their core support; Russia was a no-go since Putin apparently has Donnie's nose firmly Vlad's butt; North Korea didn't really pan out because Trump is easily assuaged by flattering "perfect' letters from Kim; Cuba nobody really cares about and ditto with Venezuela and other Latin American countries and leaders; all that's really left is China to rattle sabers at and to which shake a tiny fist, so they were the lucky faux 'foe'; if you look carefully at all the actions taken by Trump directed at China, little to nothing has been gained and much has gotten worse...





<O>

Ah - no. This is not Trump's mistake, and I assume you do not suspect me to be a Trump sympathiser. China is China all by itself, its own will and its own intention. No matter who sat in the WH, China would have gone this way anyway. it always planned to do so, since years if not decades. Its China.

The german China policy as well as that of Clinton and Obama, has exploded right into our face. We could have seen it coming, if onyl we would have dared to look beyond the moment instead of listening to wishful dreaming. Different to America, Europe and namely Germany and then those net takers in the EU who allowed China to buy itself into their national market and policy making, still prefer to continue dreaming. The fate of those who chose to be weak: once the evil is met, all you can do is smile as before - and smiling, you will be walked upon.

Grin, idiot, grin!