Well, tried all the outside views in combination with Ctrl <N>, still no joy... betting that something in the TMO/RSRDC combo MOD changed the key allocation. Will try it again when I reinstall with just vanilla before installing just TMO. Then we'll see what changed what... Might be a while though... Only 1943 game time now.

aob is simple in the game...get the ships course relative to your sub and set that course in the tdc.

I believe Ctrl-N is a stock keyboard command and I've used it TMO as well. Perhaps you have a different keyboard key assignment?

Well that's helping to pin down the lack of it on my TMO installation

Even though I'm running TMO, it's in combination with RSRDC overlaying it. This probably confirms what Rockin Robbins implied in another thread that RSRDC did not just stick to varying the campaign files when combined with TMO, it also changed Ducimus' underlying keystroke modifications also and now I'm suspecting other things.

This is relatively minor, but now I'm really wondering what else really was deliberately changed in TMO's behavior when RSRDC was overlaid on top of it.
Everything I read in the various RSRDC documentation files implied that

Quote: (from some RSRDC documentation)

"Run Silent, Run Deep, the Campaign" (RSRDC) is a major rewrite of the campaign layers of SH4 and is designed to overcome the following major "stock" campaign problems..."

Notice the wording "campaign layers", I specifically took that to mean that RSRDC was JUST a campaign layer overwrite, and so was specifically designed to overlay the stock or other MODs without changing their other underlying behaviors. Evidence that the key assignments were changed contradicts the implication that RSRDC "is just a campaign layer overwrite".

Rockin Robbins is probably right when he implied that when playing the TMO/RSRDC combo you are no longer playing TMO... In his (Rockin Robbins) words, that combo is like an "alien" taking over the TMO body.

:up: to Rockin Robbins for opening my eyes to pay attention to noticing subtle differences in TMO

Okay, decided to do a reinstall of TMO (without the resident evil alien takeover RSRDC mod).

It works as you described, still stating "Yes, Sir, Sweeping" however though...LOL

I guess I can take that literally as the only thing the <Ctrl><N> thing seems to do with the weather is take everything to 0 weather. "Sweeping the weather effects away so to speak, LOL". I was really kind of hoping that it was a random weather gererator change key, so that one could invoke it a few times in succession until you just came off the maxed out maximum and/or minimum weather settings. This wouldn't help at all for those periods that equally annoy me... Weeks on end of 0 weather. That's NOT real either.

I think TMO uses it as the command for "Normal sonar sweep", so it will give you that response.

I'm not sure if clearing the weather was a bug, or intentional, or something else.

After reloading everything, I decided to give manual targeting w/o map updates. Now that's a challenge, mainly for getting into a proper lead position to shoot. Once in position and close enough, however, the Dick O'kane method is still superior, even if you don't have the exact angle info that you can get with map updating.

Like you I'm now experimenting around with the conventional tracking method mainly for use in determining target course/bearing to plot intercepts with/without end arounds.

Your WernerSobe links are a great help, but a tutorial on determining distant target course/bearing w/o map updates would be great. I haven't been able to find any such video example

Okay, to partially atone for going OT about weather...

Regarding Manual Targeting in game.

Perusing Rockin Robbins bag of tricks thread stickied at the top of this forum. There is a link from ColonelSandersLite regarding Advanced Convoy Simultaneous Hits. Not only is this a great thread from the standpoint of the intended subject, BUT, he, ColonelSandersLite provides some excellent training aids, one of which is extremely useful for target acquisition and approach training. He prepackaged a set of eight single missions to use for such practice. I have found them to be of great value for any sort of practice imaginable. I took the liberty of separating six of them out for posting as an attachment here for anyone wishing to practice manual targeting using whatever techniques they are interested in at the moment. These are much more useful than the canned stock training missions

I just add them to the end of my mod soup whenever I want to practice something and then remove them whenever. I'm pretty sure they won't interfere with any other mods since the only thing they do is add to the Single Missions list without overwriting anything previous.

Note to Moderator(s): I changed the extension to .txt from .zip because your attachment format doesn't cover .zip files. I thought maybe there might be a specific reason for such exclusion but could find nothing in the Rules. Let me know if it is some sort of infraction and I'll find some other way to post the .zip file:salute:



ColonelSandersLite's Training Missions (click/download attachment and change extension from .txt back to .zip)


.

That's because it just isn't possible. Our radar screens on real subs gave ship positions to within 15 yards, regardless of range, as accurate as our map updates. But our game radars are nowhere near adequate to giving us the same accuracy as the real submarines had. Our nav map suffers from error due to binning, so it is not perfectly accurate either.

Therefore map contacts off becomes like crossing eight lanes of traffic on I-75 in the middle of Atlanta with a blindfold on. It is possible, especially if you are blind and have developed the necessary abilities. But is it in any way realistic? No, like map contacts off, it is difficult and I suppose some points must be offered for the sheer difficulty of it, but it is not historical, accurate or any reflection of the actual situation of a radar equipped submarine in the war.

It is a major travesty that the settings are called "realism" settings. They are difficulty settings and nothing more.

As long as you are using TMO or TMOPlot, map contacts on is much more historically accurate than map contacts off. I've read most of the war reports of American submarines and not one brags about the Commander conning the boat with a paper bag over his head. So far.

Well, I actually succeeded in a rough approximation of a distant target's course and speed using the radar screen spokes and very rough approx. radar distance rings. When the target got close enough for the sonar man to call out sound bearings, it helped even more, but even the sonar man is off a couple of degrees usually and at a good distance that can mean a lot of error.

Definitely it was a very rough approximation, but enough to start an end around once close enough to visually feel your way around the outer visibility limit. Two readings were required with several minutes between the readings to get the rough course approximation (forget target speed calculations though). It is doable, but I'm not sure if it's something I'm going to enjoy game play wise.

I did it using the X marker tool, marking the sub position and then the line tool drawing out the same bearing angle 10 miles or so then the compass circle at approx. the same distance, where they intersect, place an X and wait a while, rinse, repeat... It's too sloppy to use for 3 minute speed determination usage however.

I think you might be exaggerating a little bit likening it to conning the boat with a paper bag over his head. Really I don't think they had a map with a little dot moving neatly around on it either. The simulation does suffer from accuracy with the radar screen, but the technique they used had to be something similar to above.

Right now I'm hampered by not being very good with the Position Keeper when they are close enough since I've really just used the Constant Bearing for all my previous gameplay due to its ease of use especially with the moving dot using on-map updates.

Actually the maneuvering board DID have a lighted dot which moved on the course and speed of the target. The light was under the chart, moved by electric motors! Part of shooting torpedoes was comparing the bearing from the plot with actual bearing. If they matched you shot. If not you started the targeting process over.

The analog of that is our attack map, a much maligned and poorly understood part of SH4. Some mods, RFB being notable, actually took away button bar and keyboard access to the attack map, a very unfortunate decision.

Interesting re: lighted dot in real sub.

But in game, all the attack map does is display the imaginary target. It could be a lot more useful if it superimposed a mobo style dot on it to match that imaginary target to. (Wonder if a mod, could do that? hint, hint, LOL). As it is, all I use the attack map for is confirmation of my torpedo TDC attack solution and sometimes to watch the fired torpedoes tracking on target.

The one thing I noticed is in SH3, may be the same with SH4, I haven't checked yet, is that the sonar gives the bearing to the screws not the center of the ship.

That may be where your error is coming in.

Barracuda

Did some thinking re:lighted dot you refer to and one has to wonder how did it get the information for moving on the course and speed of the target...

Could it possibly have been by the methods previously discussed and then placed in this makeshift MoBo?

You could be on to something.

:up:


A guy commented on one of those videos a couple of days ago so I thought I would stop in, only to find people talking about me :O:.


That diagram is wrong. What's labeled as the "Track Angle" is actually the "Torpedo Track Angle". Basically every measure between V Torpedo and V Target needs to have the word Torpedo inserted. See the USN fire control manual at http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/attack/index.htm page 1-12 for a more information. "Track Angle" is actually the relationship between your course and the target course.

That being said, AOB is related to own course. Intercept angle, Bearing, and AOB must add to 180 or it's not a triangle. Intercept angle is based on the difference between your course and target course.

We can say it's a mathematical certainty that if you keep any one point of the triangle constant over time, the other two must change unless you are on a collision course.

The most common constant in a torpedo attack is going to be track angle. Since track angle isn't going to change, bearing and AOB will.

Suppose you want to keep AOB constant though. Why might you do this? Maybe you want your torpedoes to hit the target at a certain angle and you're not happy with the range. In order to keep AOB constant, you must change course and bearing.

Suppose you want to keep bearing constant. Why? Perhaps you're doing an end around to get in front of the target. In this case, you want to keep distance constant so you move around the circumference of a circle centered on the target. AOB and course must change.

In the case of a collision course, all 3 angles remain constant over time, changing the scaling of the triangle, but not the angles.


edit: fixed a small mistake

edit 2: fixed another mistake. I'm on a roll today...

Getting back to the topic of working the TDC, I thought I would state my own data entry procedure when using the position keeper.


Determine target course and speed via any method.

Enter speed into the TDC first.

Enter approximate AOB into the TDC.

Enter bearing and range into the TDC.

Start the position keeper.

Fine tune the AOB.

Get fresh bearing and range entered into the TDC.




If I'm not using the position keeper, my normal procedure is:

Determine target course and speed via any method.

Ensure the position keeper is off.

Set speed to either 0 or target speed depending on method of shooting.

Send range and shoot bearing to the TDC.

Set AOB to either 0 or the AOB of the target at the shoot bearing, depending on method.

Resend range and shoot bearing to the TDC just before firing to ensure that they haven't been messed up by a stadimeter reading or whatever during the approach.

Very glad to hear directly from you. :rock:

I'm going to use your PK steps for my initial PK training.



re: not using the PK

What method allows for a 0 (zero) speed setting?

What method allows for a 0 AOB or do you mean 90 degrees AOB?

Are those "Down the throat" setup settings?

Thanks for sharing tips!

I usually use 0 speed and AOB for zero gyro shots. I just look up the bearing to aim the scope at on on a reference table. Since you have my reference materials archive, you already have the tables I use. I probably use this method 90% or more of the time when I'm just attacking a lone merchant tracked by radar.

I also have a tendency to finish off ships using just 0 gyro shots and guessing the lead angle. I usually hit. Make enough 0 gyro shots and it's not too hard to do.

Also, yes, I've done that for down the throat shots as well.

To make sure I'm understanding this correctly... You're just using 0 speed and 0 AOB as a setting on the TDC to get a "straight as possible" torpedo run and using your reference charts to place the scope on the correct lead angle?

Interesting refinement if that's the case, since my constant bearing shots (no PK) always involve setting the TDC speed to target speed (not 0 unless the target is actually stopped), choosing a lead angle to fire (i.e. usually 10 slow target/15 medium target /20 fast target degrees) and setting that as my target's AOB (at point of firing). Then I scope down the same lead angle allowing the TDC to make slight gyro alterations in the final firing solution.

re: your last (no PK step)

I usually just quickly flip over to the attack screen momentarily to ensure that the TDC setup has not changed. I used to do it your way, but every so often I would get into some sort of "locked' situation where hitting the triangle would not reset the TDC or worse, mess up an already good setup, so rather than mess with the settings last minute automatically, I check the attack screen solution first to see if it's necessary.

There is one thing wrong with ColonelSandersLite's instructions for using the PK, and if you followed my earlier instructions, you already know what it is.

After entering speed and AoB it is absolutely vital that the PK be on before you take your range/bearing sight. ColonelSandersLite turns on the PK after the range/bearing sight. The reason that is wrong is that after taking the sight in ColonelSandersLite's method, your artificial target is not moving. The real target is. Therefore you introduce an error in the amount of distance the target moves between when you hit the send button on the stadimeter to when you start the PK. The artificial target, which is what the sub really shoots at, will be behind the real target by that distance.

If you subsequently take another stadimeter shot, it will correct the error. But why would you use wrong procedure to introduce the error to begin with? Just turn on the PK first and you'll be bang on every time.

I used to use a chart to do lead angle. I stopped. Why? What is easier than picking the wrong column off a chart when under time pressure? NOTHING! Humans make stupid errors given the slightest opportunity, and so will you. However the TDC doesn't make that mistake. It always knows which speed of which kind of torpedo is going out the selected tube. It always is picking the correct gyro angle. That's why the Dick O'Kane method uses a rule of thumb for lead angle and lets the TDC pick the gyro angle. It works correctly every time. People don't.

Simplify. Toss out steps that introduce foreseeable error. Then do it some more. What you're left with is repeatable valid procedure.